I engaged in religious debate because these people vote, have and raise children, and what they believe affects me and everyone else in society. And substituting supernatural nonsense for empirical observation is not the way to knowing information and actuating positive change.
I would use a slightly different approach as well as the one you mention. I can debate religion, as firmly and aggresively as I like, and yet come away having the theists like me for it. How?
I simply stipulate that faith, without challenge, is empty. Only by asking the difficult questions can a theist truly know what they believe. If I ask them a question they cannot answer however, then it highlights the fact that perhaps what they believe, may well not be the truth. I don't expect them to admit it, but all I wish to do is make them highlight these holes in their arguments. Eventually, it may lead to a shift in belief.
I believe strongly in my belief. There is just as much evidence in the scientific world to go either way(some of the books out there prove Christ through science and historical facts and archaeology and so on and some against), I know you’ll all disagree and so on and so forth but that’s what I believe to be the truth.
Whilst I don’t think that stem-cell research or abortions should take place (and if it be law, it should only be lawful to a women who has reported to the police about a rape or anything that may happen in an unlawful way to fertilise a female, however if it is because someone forgot to put a condom on or use contraception I believe that there is no reason at all for the negligence) I do think that it needs to be rationalised (as in we all have the same destination, we’ve lived without stem cell research before it’s not going to kill us all yes it may be great for some people but… I dunno I just without religion involved find it wrong to not give a future child a chance in life), good news is that we don’t need stem cells anymore.
I believe that it’s a catastrophe that homosexuals don’t have the same rights as heterosexuals however I believe that Marriage is a religious ceremony between a man and a woman.
It goes both ways by the way, Christians have more or less been forced to marry two people of the same sex because some of the Atheists believe it is their right and is now bound by law. Hell the Gay community can make their own ceremony but it doesn’t need to be held in a church.
As for Christians condemning you to a world of misery and anger… eh… do you know what it’s like to step inside a church and meet the real Christians instead of the annoying people that rock up at your door at dinner telling you that you’re going to hell unless you “Repent NOW!!”?
I’m not going to lie we’ll try and make you Christian but we only need ever to do it once I’ve forgotten what verse it is in the bible (it’s 3:11 am) but I think it’s Jesus (haven’t read the whole bible yet) that says “his blood is not on my hands” that is to say that a Christian won’t get into trouble with Jesus on Judgement day if he doesn’t convert you or anything like that.
Anyway if I’m wrong and your right then I’ll just end up… well nothing so it seems, but if I’m right and your wrong…
P.S. if it’s really really really getting your goat go and live in Communist China or North Korea all atheists… well maybe not North Korea (their leader is their god) but China is supposed to be Atheist anyway.
You have been meeting a lot of fake Christians. For instance, people who kill homosexuals just because of their alternative lifestyle are NOT Christian. True Christianity preaches love for everyone even if they don’t share the same beliefs. People, however, are flawed and many of them misinterpret the Bible and Christianity.
Many atheists accuse Christians of forcing their beliefs on others. I admit that I get annoyed when Protestants go door to door trying to convert me. I chose my own religion freely and cannot stand when others try to shove their beliefs down my throat. It sure seems like you are the “atheist” version of this type of Christian. You are so convinced that you are right and that everyone who does not share your exact beliefs are wrong to the point where you’ll stir up arguments with people. What exactly has this accomplished? More often than not, you only manage to anger religious people without ever converting them to atheism. If they suddenly chose to give up their beliefs, then they already had weak faith begin with and were already considering becoming atheists. Believe me, your arguments cannot make a genuinely religious person become an atheist.
Many atheists claim that religion has caused so much violence and this is reason enough to eliminate all religions. Religious texts are very much up for interpretation.. It’s kind of like how the U.S. Constitution is up for interpretation. You can twist and manipulate passages in either of these documents to fit any belief you want. I can easily look in any religious text without ever having studied that particular religion and justify any violent action.
Money and politics have bred a lot of violence, so should we eliminate those as well? Are you starting to see the problem here? PEOPLE cause violence in the world and it’s often the intolerance of people that brings about wars. It’s the same intolerance many atheists have towards religious people. Similar to fundamentalists, many atheists (not all, though) try to force their beliefs onto others and are convinced that everyone else is headed down the wrong path and are just ignorant. That’s very hypocritical since many atheists are doing the exact same thing they accuse many religious people of doing.
My personal belief is this: if you believe in God, then that’s great. If you don’t believe in God, then I don’t care. It’s your life and you need to live it the way you see fit. If you can die with no regrets, then more power to you.
Also, you can find many examples of individuals on the internet who de-converted from a strong faith in a fundamentalist version of Christianity to atheism. For starters, try Ex-Christian.net
@jamesatracy – Tanya, I agree with ConversationalAtheist. The whole point of part of your comment was that religious people cannot be persuaded so it is not worth even trying. That is absolutely false. Many religious people have been persuaded – which you seem to now agree with.
I know the type of people you are referring to. Those people were ALREADY doubting their faith for whatever reason. You are trying to argue that it is the atheist’s arguments that cause them to drop all of their beliefs, which is not true. All you can really say is that an atheist’s arguments served as the last straw to finally push them over the edge to atheism. However, there were many other events, doubts and circumstances that got them close to that edge in the first place.
I have friends who gave up atheism and chose Christianity. They asked me to teach them more about Christianity one day, which surprised me. Not long afterwards, they converted. I’d love to be able to say that it was me who converted them, but it simply was not the case. They were going through some very difficult challenges, causing them to doubt everything they had ever believed. It is these challenges and doubts that either make people cling even more onto their beliefs or give them up entirely.
For a person who is very solid in their beliefs and has no doubts whatsoever regarding their faith, you absolutely cannot change their mind. Just as I cannot change your views about religion. Even if I were somehow able to make God appear right in front of you, you would not believe in his existence and would try to come up with a logical explanation while still clinging to your beliefs. Why? Because you are so convinced that there isn’t a God that you want to hold onto that belief no matter what (religious people are the same way). No one wants to suddenly discover that their beliefs have been wrong all this time. That would be devastating.
Sorry for being longwinded. To sum up, a person will only give up their beliefs IF they have been experiencing doubt about the validity of their beliefs in the first place. If, for example, they are religious but are doubting the validity of Christianity, then an atheist can confirm their doubts by pointing out flaws. When their doubts are confirmed, this can easily make someone cross that line and drastically switch to atheism. That’s the point I’m trying to make.
Quick question. You said at the end that a person will only give up their beliefs IF they have been experiencing doubts about the validity of their beliefs. And yet only paragraphs earlier spoke of converting a few of your atheist friends by teaching them Christianity. So which is it? Or is it just that atheists can be converted out of atheism, not theists out of theism?
Sorry, maybe I wasn’t clear. I wrote that post when I was a bit tired. I said that I taught my atheist friends Christianity since they asked. Not long after they did convert to Christianity. On the surface, it APPEARED that they converted because of what I told them, but this was NOT the reason they converted. I was aware that they were going through a very difficult time when their life was falling apart. It was this challenging time that for whatever reason, made them question atheism. All I did was further confirm their doubts, which was the final push they needed to fully convert. It was their own difficulties that made them consider converting (I had nothing to do with this part).
So like I said, if they did not question their atheistic beliefs in the first place, there is NOTHING I could ever say to make them convert to Christianity. It was only when they had doubts that anything I said about Christianity mattered. I just gave them that final push, but it was their difficulties that had the greatest influence and these challenges deserve 99% of the credit for causing them to convert. And yes, everything I’ve said here can be applied to theists as well: they will only give up religion if they are already experiencing doubts about it in the first place. All an atheist can do is give them that final push. But for a theist without any doubts, nothing an atheist says will make them give up their beliefs.
If an atheist’s goal is just to argue, then by all means argue with any theist. However, if an atheist’s goal is to turn a theist into an atheist, then they really are just wasting their time UNLESS they find a theist with very weak beliefs. The problem is that it is not always obvious which person is experiencing doubts about their belief system. Most people do not reveal their innermost thoughts except to very close friends and sometimes not even then.
@Tanya – Sometimes an atheist can give a believer that final push that he or she needs. However, you fail to appreciate the fact that sometimes conversation and debate can plant the seeds of doubt in the first place. Nobody is claiming to be able to change believer’s minds overnight. It is a process and for every person that process is different. The idea is to get believers to start questioning their beliefs.
I don’t think you’ve gotten one of my points. IF you are able to seemingly convert someone to atheism, then their faith was weak to begin with. My faith is very strong, so until there is a day when I’m having doubts, there is nothing an atheist can say to make me change my mind or even consider becoming an atheist. Just like I very much doubt that anything I say will cause you to doubt your atheistic beliefs because you are clearly devoted to atheism.
You fail to face the fact that there are many people especially now, who are having many doubts about many of their beliefs. Often outsiders will never even know that these people are having these doubts or questions. On the surface can appear very sure of themselves and secure, but on the inside they’re falling apart and most people will not reveal this information to others particularly in an argument. When people have these doubts, then yes, you can throw out a few pro-atheism arguments which will confirm their doubts and after wrestling with the decision for a bit of time, then they will eventually switch to atheism.
Anyways, this is all I’m going to say about this. All we can do is agree to disagree.
“IF you are able to seemingly convert someone to atheism, then their faith was weak to begin with.”
Not necessarily. Many ex-Christians began with a deeply committed faith. Where do these doubts come from? Why do they arise? For many reasons, of course. What you again fail to understand is that it is very much possible for a committed believer to begin doubting his/her faith because of something an atheist has said or written. You seem to be under the impression that nothing an atheist says can ever cause any firmly committed believer to begin having doubts. Maybe you think that’s true for you. But it is not necessarily true for everybody.
“I very much doubt that anything I say will cause you to doubt your atheistic beliefs”
Show me irrefutable or at least extraordinary evidence that Jesus rose from the dead and I will start believing. I try to align my beliefs with the available evidence. Do you?
These doubts arise from extremely intense, traumatic and even dangerous circumstances. We all go through difficult times but some people go through excruciatingly painful experiences that are far more painful than many of us can imagine. It these challenging times that really put our beliefs to the test. We’re challenged to really examine our beliefs and choices in order to weed out what we believe is the truth and what is a lie.
And no, if you are so sure that you are right, then nothing will change your mind until you want to change. Remember that common rule about not being able to change someone? Only they can change themselves.
You want proof about Jesus resurrection? The best proof I can provide is to take you there myself and show you the tomb, but I’m sure both of us have other things to do, so this is all I can show you:
@Tanya – You are generalizing again. There is no general rule. Some people actualy have doubts for intellectual, not emotional reasons. If I do see good evidence then I will change my mind. You don’t want to believe me but there is not much more that I can say.
Dude, that was awesome. Its always good to read articles like this because it helps me understand my own reasoning and explain it better to others. Keep up the good work!
I found this site thanks in part to Atheist Under Ur Bed and AUUB had a big part in my deconversion. Just thought I’d give props where props are due.
As to the Tanya note thread going on here I thought I’d add a testimonial of sorts that I started questioning for intellectual and not emotional reasons and not because my faith was weak but because I wanted to make it stronger. I challenge readers like Tanya to do the same.
Challenge to me #2: “We should respect their beliefs.”
A strongly held belief does not automatically deserve respect.
——
You do realize the irony here right? =) You know…YOUR strongly held belief?
As an athiest, I find it interesting how some of my fellow non-thiests posit the idea of absolute truth when you can’t prove absolute truth. I mean, let’s be honest, only the agnostics are rational (i.e. We don’t know!)
Two points to mention, firstly are you saying you disagree with the concept of not respecting other’s beliefs? The point lying therein isn’t that THEIR beliefs are the only ones to not be given respect. We should all believe what we believe, and strive to prove what we believe is true plausibly. I hope you didn’t really believe those of us who agree with the first statement would make the exception for our own beliefs, or lack thereof!
Secondly, how rational is it to assume, Dave? Because truly, a rational, logical mind would find no time to assume based on nothing. An agnostic is not rational, he is non-commital. He will refuse to make a point because he pessimistically guarantees a permanently open argument. Personally, I find the theist point of view is skewed, and only held open by blind assumption and faith. To me, the logical mind asks questions, and accepts no false answers. Theism doesn’t ask questions because it believes it has them, agnosticism doesn’t ask questions because it believes there never will be an answer, and atheism asks the questions because it wants to know. Which is more rational in your opinion, Dave?
Challenge #2 really is disturbing to me. You're telling me we should not respect ppl's beliefs we think it's wrong? As another person commented, this is very ironic. Why should we respect your belief? Belief in a God is something that is very personal, please try and understand that. You can not look into the hearts of people and understand why they believe in a God, so please stop trying to be so arrogant, and pretentious and declare they are wrong, and you shouldn't respect them.
Many ppl have spiritual experiences that lead them to believe there is a God. Their faith grows as they learn more about their religion, and suddenly it clicks with them – it makes them believe. In the end, believing in a God really isn't much different than believing in karma, or some sort of spirituality. It helps them make sense of what is happening to them in their lives – it gives them a perspective that gives them inner peace.
And you're telling we shouldn't respect that? Please.. go out to the real world, and experience some type of adversity, or witness ppl who are suffering before you utter such an incredibly naive statement… You just cant imagine in your mind what role religion does in helping these ppl cope with their lives.
Thank you for your considered comment. It appears that you have taken an issue with a firm belief that I have: namely, that people with harmful and false beliefs should be challenged.
You have then written to me and engaged me with reasons and argument about why I should change my outlook and my actions. You could have written me off as some nut who will never change his mind and just likes listening to his own delusions in the echo chamber of my skull. Instead, you engaged me as a person with a rational mind that is open to correcting his outlook and actions when presented with compelling reasons — this shows that you respect me as a person, and I appreciate that.
This approach is exactly the process that I am advocating through my website. There is no difference at all.
You wrote: "You're telling me we should not respect ppl's beliefs we think it's wrong?"
Not at all. My direct and explicit claim was that "strongly held beliefs do not automatically deserve respect." The mistake must be on my end when I worded this sentence because people keep misinterpreting what I wrote.
If you think you disagree with this statement, answer me this. Consider a person who is a fervent racist. He strongly holds these racist beliefs. Do you think that his racism deserves respect based on his fervently believing it?
Perhaps you do, but I doubt it. If you are not clamoring to shield racist beliefs from criticism, then you absolutely agree with what I wrote: A strongly held belief does not automatically deserve respect.
But truthfully…. At the end of the day not one man or woman will prove or disprove the existence of God. If you guys could there would be no more arguing. Faith is a beautiful thing no matter what that faith is in, ignorant maybe… but who cares let people be themselves and stop trying to change the inevitable ” people will keep being people with silly beleifs long after your dead” stfu and do somthing better with your time.
Greetings from MenAfterGod.com.
From what I have read in your blog it would seem you are a fellow who enjoys a good debate and is prepared to do so as a gentleman. As you have guessed I am a man of faith, (Christian to be exact). Non-denominational for those that must have a classification, although as I tell my church friends, “Excluding others automatically puts you in a separate class, which by Christian terms denotes denomination.”
Some have called me a saint and some would call me an ass for the debates I engage on religion. But I’m just a cigar smoking redneck that wants people to believe in their faith & have faith in what they believe in. I challenge atheist and mostly Christians to defend what they believe in. And I believe a civil debate prepares those engaged to re-examine their proof and thus strengthen their belief.
Your blog appears to attract a mature crowd of atheist which is what I seek. I get tried of always having to inform “wannabes” of their lack of knowledge and misconception of faith. Example: the blogger who speaks atheism but calls himself “Son of Satan”. Hmm, no god, no satan, dah. Another example: the newbie Christians that get into atheist blogs and end up using the phrase, “it’s true because I feel it inside.” Ahh, that just probably is last night’s pizza honey.
It is a shame that an atheist coment can make a difference on a removal of a statue or prayer in school when the majority beleive in having such things on the grounds. Our country was built on and with Christian values, I strongly beleive that Christians are being challenged by the so called atheis and it is time that we step up to the plate for what we beleive in.I urge everyone to read Lee Strobel THE CASE FOR FAITH (A JOURNALIST INVESTIGATES THE TOUGHEST OBJECTIONS TO CHRISTIANITHY.) includes th 8 heart "barriers" to the Christian faith, including evil, suffering, science, hypocrisy, and the nature of God. This is a Gold Medallion winning book.
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Excellent post.
My response would be much shorter:
I engaged in religious debate because these people vote, have and raise children, and what they believe affects me and everyone else in society. And substituting supernatural nonsense for empirical observation is not the way to knowing information and actuating positive change.
I would use a slightly different approach as well as the one you mention. I can debate religion, as firmly and aggresively as I like, and yet come away having the theists like me for it. How?
I simply stipulate that faith, without challenge, is empty. Only by asking the difficult questions can a theist truly know what they believe. If I ask them a question they cannot answer however, then it highlights the fact that perhaps what they believe, may well not be the truth. I don't expect them to admit it, but all I wish to do is make them highlight these holes in their arguments. Eventually, it may lead to a shift in belief.
I believe strongly in my belief. There is just as much evidence in the scientific world to go either way(some of the books out there prove Christ through science and historical facts and archaeology and so on and some against), I know you’ll all disagree and so on and so forth but that’s what I believe to be the truth.
Whilst I don’t think that stem-cell research or abortions should take place (and if it be law, it should only be lawful to a women who has reported to the police about a rape or anything that may happen in an unlawful way to fertilise a female, however if it is because someone forgot to put a condom on or use contraception I believe that there is no reason at all for the negligence) I do think that it needs to be rationalised (as in we all have the same destination, we’ve lived without stem cell research before it’s not going to kill us all yes it may be great for some people but… I dunno I just without religion involved find it wrong to not give a future child a chance in life), good news is that we don’t need stem cells anymore.
I believe that it’s a catastrophe that homosexuals don’t have the same rights as heterosexuals however I believe that Marriage is a religious ceremony between a man and a woman.
It goes both ways by the way, Christians have more or less been forced to marry two people of the same sex because some of the Atheists believe it is their right and is now bound by law. Hell the Gay community can make their own ceremony but it doesn’t need to be held in a church.
As for Christians condemning you to a world of misery and anger… eh… do you know what it’s like to step inside a church and meet the real Christians instead of the annoying people that rock up at your door at dinner telling you that you’re going to hell unless you “Repent NOW!!”?
I’m not going to lie we’ll try and make you Christian but we only need ever to do it once I’ve forgotten what verse it is in the bible (it’s 3:11 am) but I think it’s Jesus (haven’t read the whole bible yet) that says “his blood is not on my hands” that is to say that a Christian won’t get into trouble with Jesus on Judgement day if he doesn’t convert you or anything like that.
Anyway if I’m wrong and your right then I’ll just end up… well nothing so it seems, but if I’m right and your wrong…
P.S. if it’s really really really getting your goat go and live in Communist China or North Korea all atheists… well maybe not North Korea (their leader is their god) but China is supposed to be Atheist anyway.
You have been meeting a lot of fake Christians. For instance, people who kill homosexuals just because of their alternative lifestyle are NOT Christian. True Christianity preaches love for everyone even if they don’t share the same beliefs. People, however, are flawed and many of them misinterpret the Bible and Christianity.
Many atheists accuse Christians of forcing their beliefs on others. I admit that I get annoyed when Protestants go door to door trying to convert me. I chose my own religion freely and cannot stand when others try to shove their beliefs down my throat. It sure seems like you are the “atheist” version of this type of Christian. You are so convinced that you are right and that everyone who does not share your exact beliefs are wrong to the point where you’ll stir up arguments with people. What exactly has this accomplished? More often than not, you only manage to anger religious people without ever converting them to atheism. If they suddenly chose to give up their beliefs, then they already had weak faith begin with and were already considering becoming atheists. Believe me, your arguments cannot make a genuinely religious person become an atheist.
Many atheists claim that religion has caused so much violence and this is reason enough to eliminate all religions. Religious texts are very much up for interpretation.. It’s kind of like how the U.S. Constitution is up for interpretation. You can twist and manipulate passages in either of these documents to fit any belief you want. I can easily look in any religious text without ever having studied that particular religion and justify any violent action.
Money and politics have bred a lot of violence, so should we eliminate those as well? Are you starting to see the problem here? PEOPLE cause violence in the world and it’s often the intolerance of people that brings about wars. It’s the same intolerance many atheists have towards religious people. Similar to fundamentalists, many atheists (not all, though) try to force their beliefs onto others and are convinced that everyone else is headed down the wrong path and are just ignorant. That’s very hypocritical since many atheists are doing the exact same thing they accuse many religious people of doing.
My personal belief is this: if you believe in God, then that’s great. If you don’t believe in God, then I don’t care. It’s your life and you need to live it the way you see fit. If you can die with no regrets, then more power to you.
@Tanya – No True Scotsman Fallacy
Also, you can find many examples of individuals on the internet who de-converted from a strong faith in a fundamentalist version of Christianity to atheism. For starters, try Ex-Christian.net
@jamesatracy –
Yes, that’s true and I also know many atheists who have converted to Christianity despite being shunned by the their families. What’s your point?
People become religious or anti-religious for various reasons.
@Tanya – “People become religious or anti-religious for various reasons… What’s your point?”
That the statement you made: “your arguments cannot make a genuinely religious person become an atheist.” is false.
@jamesatracy – Tanya, I agree with ConversationalAtheist. The whole point of part of your comment was that religious people cannot be persuaded so it is not worth even trying. That is absolutely false. Many religious people have been persuaded – which you seem to now agree with.
I know the type of people you are referring to. Those people were ALREADY doubting their faith for whatever reason. You are trying to argue that it is the atheist’s arguments that cause them to drop all of their beliefs, which is not true. All you can really say is that an atheist’s arguments served as the last straw to finally push them over the edge to atheism. However, there were many other events, doubts and circumstances that got them close to that edge in the first place.
I have friends who gave up atheism and chose Christianity. They asked me to teach them more about Christianity one day, which surprised me. Not long afterwards, they converted. I’d love to be able to say that it was me who converted them, but it simply was not the case. They were going through some very difficult challenges, causing them to doubt everything they had ever believed. It is these challenges and doubts that either make people cling even more onto their beliefs or give them up entirely.
For a person who is very solid in their beliefs and has no doubts whatsoever regarding their faith, you absolutely cannot change their mind. Just as I cannot change your views about religion. Even if I were somehow able to make God appear right in front of you, you would not believe in his existence and would try to come up with a logical explanation while still clinging to your beliefs. Why? Because you are so convinced that there isn’t a God that you want to hold onto that belief no matter what (religious people are the same way). No one wants to suddenly discover that their beliefs have been wrong all this time. That would be devastating.
Sorry for being longwinded. To sum up, a person will only give up their beliefs IF they have been experiencing doubt about the validity of their beliefs in the first place. If, for example, they are religious but are doubting the validity of Christianity, then an atheist can confirm their doubts by pointing out flaws. When their doubts are confirmed, this can easily make someone cross that line and drastically switch to atheism. That’s the point I’m trying to make.
@ Tanya
Quick question. You said at the end that a person will only give up their beliefs IF they have been experiencing doubts about the validity of their beliefs. And yet only paragraphs earlier spoke of converting a few of your atheist friends by teaching them Christianity. So which is it? Or is it just that atheists can be converted out of atheism, not theists out of theism?
@RooCH.
Sorry, maybe I wasn’t clear. I wrote that post when I was a bit tired. I said that I taught my atheist friends Christianity since they asked. Not long after they did convert to Christianity. On the surface, it APPEARED that they converted because of what I told them, but this was NOT the reason they converted. I was aware that they were going through a very difficult time when their life was falling apart. It was this challenging time that for whatever reason, made them question atheism. All I did was further confirm their doubts, which was the final push they needed to fully convert. It was their own difficulties that made them consider converting (I had nothing to do with this part).
So like I said, if they did not question their atheistic beliefs in the first place, there is NOTHING I could ever say to make them convert to Christianity. It was only when they had doubts that anything I said about Christianity mattered. I just gave them that final push, but it was their difficulties that had the greatest influence and these challenges deserve 99% of the credit for causing them to convert. And yes, everything I’ve said here can be applied to theists as well: they will only give up religion if they are already experiencing doubts about it in the first place. All an atheist can do is give them that final push. But for a theist without any doubts, nothing an atheist says will make them give up their beliefs.
If an atheist’s goal is just to argue, then by all means argue with any theist. However, if an atheist’s goal is to turn a theist into an atheist, then they really are just wasting their time UNLESS they find a theist with very weak beliefs. The problem is that it is not always obvious which person is experiencing doubts about their belief system. Most people do not reveal their innermost thoughts except to very close friends and sometimes not even then.
Hope that makes sense!
@Tanya – Sometimes an atheist can give a believer that final push that he or she needs. However, you fail to appreciate the fact that sometimes conversation and debate can plant the seeds of doubt in the first place. Nobody is claiming to be able to change believer’s minds overnight. It is a process and for every person that process is different. The idea is to get believers to start questioning their beliefs.
@James Tracy
I don’t think you’ve gotten one of my points. IF you are able to seemingly convert someone to atheism, then their faith was weak to begin with. My faith is very strong, so until there is a day when I’m having doubts, there is nothing an atheist can say to make me change my mind or even consider becoming an atheist. Just like I very much doubt that anything I say will cause you to doubt your atheistic beliefs because you are clearly devoted to atheism.
You fail to face the fact that there are many people especially now, who are having many doubts about many of their beliefs. Often outsiders will never even know that these people are having these doubts or questions. On the surface can appear very sure of themselves and secure, but on the inside they’re falling apart and most people will not reveal this information to others particularly in an argument. When people have these doubts, then yes, you can throw out a few pro-atheism arguments which will confirm their doubts and after wrestling with the decision for a bit of time, then they will eventually switch to atheism.
Anyways, this is all I’m going to say about this. All we can do is agree to disagree.
@Tanya
“IF you are able to seemingly convert someone to atheism, then their faith was weak to begin with.”
Not necessarily. Many ex-Christians began with a deeply committed faith. Where do these doubts come from? Why do they arise? For many reasons, of course. What you again fail to understand is that it is very much possible for a committed believer to begin doubting his/her faith because of something an atheist has said or written. You seem to be under the impression that nothing an atheist says can ever cause any firmly committed believer to begin having doubts. Maybe you think that’s true for you. But it is not necessarily true for everybody.
“I very much doubt that anything I say will cause you to doubt your atheistic beliefs”
Show me irrefutable or at least extraordinary evidence that Jesus rose from the dead and I will start believing. I try to align my beliefs with the available evidence. Do you?
These doubts arise from extremely intense, traumatic and even dangerous circumstances. We all go through difficult times but some people go through excruciatingly painful experiences that are far more painful than many of us can imagine. It these challenging times that really put our beliefs to the test. We’re challenged to really examine our beliefs and choices in order to weed out what we believe is the truth and what is a lie.
And no, if you are so sure that you are right, then nothing will change your mind until you want to change. Remember that common rule about not being able to change someone? Only they can change themselves.
You want proof about Jesus resurrection? The best proof I can provide is to take you there myself and show you the tomb, but I’m sure both of us have other things to do, so this is all I can show you:
http://www.leaderu.com/everystudent/easter/articles/josh2.html
I’m 100% sure you won’t believe it. I have yet to meet any strong atheist or strong theist who is willing to believe evidence shown on the internet.
Believe whatever you want to believe. As long as you can live with your choices, then that’s all that matters.
@Tanya – You are generalizing again. There is no general rule. Some people actualy have doubts for intellectual, not emotional reasons. If I do see good evidence then I will change my mind. You don’t want to believe me but there is not much more that I can say.
Dude, that was awesome. Its always good to read articles like this because it helps me understand my own reasoning and explain it better to others. Keep up the good work!
I found this site thanks in part to Atheist Under Ur Bed and AUUB had a big part in my deconversion. Just thought I’d give props where props are due.
As to the Tanya note thread going on here I thought I’d add a testimonial of sorts that I started questioning for intellectual and not emotional reasons and not because my faith was weak but because I wanted to make it stronger. I challenge readers like Tanya to do the same.
I like how there is no discussion of Judaism? Suspicious I would say, or are you coward to put something up?
Challenge to me #2: “We should respect their beliefs.”
A strongly held belief does not automatically deserve respect.
——
You do realize the irony here right? =) You know…YOUR strongly held belief?
As an athiest, I find it interesting how some of my fellow non-thiests posit the idea of absolute truth when you can’t prove absolute truth. I mean, let’s be honest, only the agnostics are rational (i.e. We don’t know!)
@Dave –
Two points to mention, firstly are you saying you disagree with the concept of not respecting other’s beliefs? The point lying therein isn’t that THEIR beliefs are the only ones to not be given respect. We should all believe what we believe, and strive to prove what we believe is true plausibly. I hope you didn’t really believe those of us who agree with the first statement would make the exception for our own beliefs, or lack thereof!
Secondly, how rational is it to assume, Dave? Because truly, a rational, logical mind would find no time to assume based on nothing. An agnostic is not rational, he is non-commital. He will refuse to make a point because he pessimistically guarantees a permanently open argument. Personally, I find the theist point of view is skewed, and only held open by blind assumption and faith. To me, the logical mind asks questions, and accepts no false answers. Theism doesn’t ask questions because it believes it has them, agnosticism doesn’t ask questions because it believes there never will be an answer, and atheism asks the questions because it wants to know. Which is more rational in your opinion, Dave?
Challenge #2 really is disturbing to me. You're telling me we should not respect ppl's beliefs we think it's wrong? As another person commented, this is very ironic. Why should we respect your belief? Belief in a God is something that is very personal, please try and understand that. You can not look into the hearts of people and understand why they believe in a God, so please stop trying to be so arrogant, and pretentious and declare they are wrong, and you shouldn't respect them.
Many ppl have spiritual experiences that lead them to believe there is a God. Their faith grows as they learn more about their religion, and suddenly it clicks with them – it makes them believe. In the end, believing in a God really isn't much different than believing in karma, or some sort of spirituality. It helps them make sense of what is happening to them in their lives – it gives them a perspective that gives them inner peace.
And you're telling we shouldn't respect that? Please.. go out to the real world, and experience some type of adversity, or witness ppl who are suffering before you utter such an incredibly naive statement… You just cant imagine in your mind what role religion does in helping these ppl cope with their lives.
Thank you for your considered comment. It appears that you have taken an issue with a firm belief that I have: namely, that people with harmful and false beliefs should be challenged.
You have then written to me and engaged me with reasons and argument about why I should change my outlook and my actions. You could have written me off as some nut who will never change his mind and just likes listening to his own delusions in the echo chamber of my skull. Instead, you engaged me as a person with a rational mind that is open to correcting his outlook and actions when presented with compelling reasons — this shows that you respect me as a person, and I appreciate that.
This approach is exactly the process that I am advocating through my website. There is no difference at all.
You wrote: "You're telling me we should not respect ppl's beliefs we think it's wrong?"
Not at all. My direct and explicit claim was that "strongly held beliefs do not automatically deserve respect." The mistake must be on my end when I worded this sentence because people keep misinterpreting what I wrote.
If you think you disagree with this statement, answer me this. Consider a person who is a fervent racist. He strongly holds these racist beliefs. Do you think that his racism deserves respect based on his fervently believing it?
Perhaps you do, but I doubt it. If you are not clamoring to shield racist beliefs from criticism, then you absolutely agree with what I wrote: A strongly held belief does not automatically deserve respect.
Thank you, thank you, thank you. I cannot say it enough. This essay (along with the rest of your site) is fantastic.
But truthfully…. At the end of the day not one man or woman will prove or disprove the existence of God. If you guys could there would be no more arguing. Faith is a beautiful thing no matter what that faith is in, ignorant maybe… but who cares let people be themselves and stop trying to change the inevitable ” people will keep being people with silly beleifs long after your dead” stfu and do somthing better with your time.
@conboii777 – When you exhort me to “do something better with my time” — that’s exactly what I’m saying to people who follow a faith.
Do you say the same thing to the faithful?
Wow, this is a GREAT article. Well done, sir.
ConverseAtheist;
Greetings from MenAfterGod.com.
From what I have read in your blog it would seem you are a fellow who enjoys a good debate and is prepared to do so as a gentleman. As you have guessed I am a man of faith, (Christian to be exact). Non-denominational for those that must have a classification, although as I tell my church friends, “Excluding others automatically puts you in a separate class, which by Christian terms denotes denomination.”
Some have called me a saint and some would call me an ass for the debates I engage on religion. But I’m just a cigar smoking redneck that wants people to believe in their faith & have faith in what they believe in. I challenge atheist and mostly Christians to defend what they believe in. And I believe a civil debate prepares those engaged to re-examine their proof and thus strengthen their belief.
Your blog appears to attract a mature crowd of atheist which is what I seek. I get tried of always having to inform “wannabes” of their lack of knowledge and misconception of faith. Example: the blogger who speaks atheism but calls himself “Son of Satan”. Hmm, no god, no satan, dah. Another example: the newbie Christians that get into atheist blogs and end up using the phrase, “it’s true because I feel it inside.” Ahh, that just probably is last night’s pizza honey.
Well enough, see soon,
Glen
It is a shame that an atheist coment can make a difference on a removal of a statue or prayer in school when the majority beleive in having such things on the grounds. Our country was built on and with Christian values, I strongly beleive that Christians are being challenged by the so called atheis and it is time that we step up to the plate for what we beleive in.I urge everyone to read Lee Strobel THE CASE FOR FAITH (A JOURNALIST INVESTIGATES THE TOUGHEST OBJECTIONS TO CHRISTIANITHY.) includes th 8 heart "barriers" to the Christian faith, including evil, suffering, science, hypocrisy, and the nature of God. This is a Gold Medallion winning book.