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Richard Dawkins points out that Hitler and Stalin both had mustaches. Does that mean that mustaches also cause genocide?
That is an excellent tactic, and we who think Christianity is absurd need similar skills for other comments. But I am afraid that most Christians won't be convinced of anything even given the slam dunk argument you presented. Like Palin, they are tone deaf to reason and will just go on repeating their mantras over and over until you're freaking sick of it and then go out to the garage to grab a shovel and shut them up. Let them see God first-hand and then come back and tell you about it. I'm an ex-Marine and we handle things directly.
That's fairly bad argumentation, although with someone who doesn't understand their faith it may work to a degree. The problem, as I see it, is that God created everyone and everything to begin with. He has the right to do as He sees fit with that creation. In fact, the Christian complaint with men committing genocide is that they are "playing God." Obviously God cannot play God. He IS God, and may do as He pleases. A distinction is that everything He does is for the overall good of the human race and He has the benefit of perfect perspective, unlike any man, to always know with exact precision what that is.
Get over it, losers. God is God, and people are people - with freedom to go Gods way or not. Hitler did not.
Actually Hitler did. God committed genocide (if you believe any of that crap), Hitler attempted genocide.
Do you have any chapters in the bible that discuss God's apparent desire for Genocide?
It's on the bottom of the page. Read the entire thing next time...
How many people were killed in the name of god?
Hitler was a vegetarian. Does that mean that if you're a vegetarian, you're like Hitler?
Hitler had a smallpox vaccination. Does that mean that if you have a smallpox vaccination, you're like Hitler?
Hitler was an unsuccessful artist. Does being an unsuccessful artist make you like Hitler?
This is guilt by association, or correlation implies causation, if you prefer. It doesn't mean anything, therefore you can't even argue with it. Tell them that when they make a valid point you'll discuss it.
See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_fallacies, a fine reference for any argument.
Wouldn't work. Its Ok for god to command genocide because he's god and everything god does is inherently moral, plus he "works in mysterious ways". Humans can't commit genocide, unless commanded to by god, and then only if its over 2000 years ago. You're not dealing with people that are capable of reason.
I was to bring this up. I've mentioned on multiple occasions the immorality of God, only to be met with drivel like "Who are we to question God?"
By questioning God and seeing the err in genocide, that makes me better than God.
good response here to an important conversational/debate sitation.
Don't forget the simpler answer though:
Statement: "Hitler was an atheist"
Answer: "Yes, and Pope Gregory the IX, who began the Inquisition, was Catholic (i.e. Christian). Not to mention most of the other popes...
Speaking as someone who describes himself as an "Existential Deist"....
The Nazis came from the birthplace of The Protestant Revolution. Even their language was that of Martin Luther (who once said that all the synagogues should be destroyed.) Priests came to the concentration camps to serve Mass to the guards. The phrase "Gott mit uns" (God with us) was stamped on the Wehrmacht belt buckles.
Hitler never formally renounced the faith of his childhood.
That's not a great comeback, as it'll lead you down a rathole regarding the God of the Old Testament and the "turn the other cheek" God of the New. You can't win an argument relying solely on the acts of the Old (at least you can't in Australia, maybe if you are dealing with a fundamentalist American you could score some points, but at that point you are also signing up to be the first against the wall when the new order comes to town).
Brilliant. I can't believe how often this argument comes up from theists.
lol this is brilliant but should be titled how to turn a discussion into a fist fight
Great, by attacking the Jewish bible you don't just seem like an anti-semite all over again, but also show your lack of knowledge about religions and their history in general. Know your enemy or any proper discussion (with intelligent people, not the kind of Christians you have in America that don't know shit about anything) will make you look like an ignorant idiot.
Hitler was a Catholic. He studied to be a Catholic priest. The school he went to had the swastika on the keystone over the main arch. Early NASDP meetings were often held in Catholic churchs and there are witnesses and pictures of Hitler attending Catholic church. Many NASDP awards had crosses on them. The SS oaths were 'by God' and you had to be in good standing with the Church to join. Both Hitler's writings and his public speeches were full of religious claims and rants about his Holy Mission from God.
Stalin studied to be an Orthodox priest. I could go on but I invite everyone to do their own research.
Good facts TWS, Hitler's speeches are full of christian pronouncements, and he often made them in front of his church. http://www.nobeliefs.com/speeches.htm
Bloodthirsty leaders, whether personally spiritual or not, must present their case to the public as either an openly religious one (as in the case of Hitler, Jim Jones, King Richard, or Osama Bin Laden) or in equally messianic terms that mimic religion. In order to convince people to slaughter each other, the public must perceive him as infallible, inerrant, and beyond reproach. This "cult of personality" phenomenon exists whether justified by ancient religious text, or a newly created manifesto. In that sense, I would consider followers of Stalin, Pol Pot and as the same as religious zealots. It is merely a religion based in an unquestionable human authority, which is basically what a church is anyway, since God isn't exactly handing out action items directly to the public these days.
A religious person might counter-argue that the comparison is not valid, as these despots were not "true believers". A "true believer" could never be so ruthless, because the love of God would guide him. I would argue that they were also not "true atheists", in the sense that true atheists, as rationalists, tend to reject demagoguery, whether religious or secular based. True atheists are well aware of the absolute fallibility of man. Besides, anyone who isn't afraid to deny the powers of a god, will have no problem denying a decidedly lesser entity-- a politician.
I would disagree with this tact in regard to a debate on the issue. I am commonly met with the "atheists are the biggest murderers" comments, and in general they tend to focus more on Mao or Stalin. But the most important point of the debate, to me, is the impetus behind the murders. The theists tend to claim it is atheism, but there is no logic or rationale to that argument. No one kills for the fact that there is no god. How often do we here of people killing for gods? God is something they believe in, and something powerful enough that killing for it is VERY plausible. But for nothing? No one kills for a lack of anything! That's the most important point to maintain in my opinion.
Atheism is frequently brought up as the reason behind Stalin and Pol Pot, and even today with North Korea. What Fundies fail to realise is that these dictators aren't killing in the name of no God, but killing for power, and more importantly, in several cases, treating themselves, or the government, as the new god. Have you ever read up on Kim Jung Il? That is a fairly tail in real life.
As a christian, I can confirm that this is a much better response than disputing the facts of it. Of course, I don't know how this topic normally comes up, but in my conversations it normally comes up because an atheist talks about all the nasty things that religion has led to (as if that somehow meant religion was wrong), and it's necessary to also point out that practically all of the most evil regimes of the 20th century were atheist, and that (as far as I know), there has never been an atheist regime that didn't oppress its people. However, this isn't an argument against atheism, it's just a counter argument to a commonly used atheist argument. I assume that this is always how this topic comes up, because to me, it's obvious that any belief can have evil people believing (or claiming to believe in it, particularly when it gives them political power), and that makes no difference to the truth or falsity of the belief.
Challenging the morality of God on the other hand is an argument that goes right to the heart of most religions (not all however - some religions acknowledge the chaotic and evil and place them inside Gods character too).
Anyway, I think we'd all benefit if atheists made up their mind about this one - are the bad actions (and there are many good actions of religious people that are ignored) of a small number of adherents of a belief evidence against that belief or not? Religions have a bad account on this one, but atheisms is not any better. Discussing the issues is much more relevant.
hitler would b more like pat robertson. they r truly compatible. both screaming corporate-christianity 2 support their corporate fascist policy. granted they may differ on choice of denomination 2 exploit but they r both full of sh*t.
phony protestant pat robertson: iran contra; diamond mine exploitation; war criminal syndicate enslaving/murdering africa.
phony catholic hitler: meth-junkie w/psycho-sexual prob conducting slave labor/murdering europe
This tactic is terrible, and won't win any argument. The problem with atheists is that you assume that the religious are idiots and you have to argue with them on their own level. Arguing that god is a mass murderer based on a fable (Catholics for example do not believe in the literal interpretation of the bible) is non-sense for both the atheist and the religious. The better argument is that Hitler was not an atheist in the pure sense. Hitler dug up half the world to find evidence for the Aryan belief system that he and his handlers were trying to peddle to the master race. Remember that the "master race" was an idea built on mythology. So if hitler was an atheist so are all polytheists. In an argument you need not prove the other side is what they are attacking instead you just need to weaken the core of their argument. It is ridiculous to say that god is a mass murderer when that is not the point of the story! The point of the flood is that despite humanities failing god gave us another chance and promised that he would never do it again (even though humans were not much less sinful afterward the flood). God was remorseful for destroying creation, Hitler was never remorceful for killing the jews, gypsies, homosexuals etc.
We need to stop having unproductive conversations with delusional adults over what they believe. They are probably beyond help. Instead we can use our time and talents to attack them on their soft underbelly. Here I mean the abuse of women and children that stems directly from their faith. It occurs in all faiths and the internet is brimming with the evidence. Abuse of women and children is indefensible.
The goal must be to end hereditary religion. Once a few generations can be raised free of dogma and superstition, existing religions will be forced to reform or go out of existence. Religions must constantly replenish their memberships as older members die off. Starving the beast of child victims will end religions as they now exist.
Do you really want to discuss with someone who uses this as an argument?
Just tell him he is an Idiot, laugh about it and go away.
hitler wasnt an atheist you guys are too worried. he was a christian fanatic who though the jews killed jesus and spent most of the war searching for precious artifacts like the spear of destiny. its true
Hitler's Anti-Semitism had nothing to do with religion, it had to do with a group of well off people who could have blame easily pinned on them. These people just so happened to practice the same religion and have the same heritage. Hitlers anti-semitist notions had no relation to religious practice; try reading an excerpt from mein kampf if you want to actually understand hitler's reasoning. If you were german, you may have been convinced by him.
The best reference for this argument is 1 Samuel 15:2-3. There, God explicitly commands the jews to slaughter the Amalekites, "man and woman, child and infant, ox and sheep, camel and donkey." There are plenty more, of course (Flood, anyone?). To anyone who was complaining about how this only works on American Christians, That seems to be understood. It was an example of how to use a specific tactic, and should only be used, of course, when it applies to the debate. If your opponent fancies themselves a "civilized" Christian, your time may be best spent attacking the absurdities of the New Testament, like the other entry on Matthew. Alternatively, you may use this to attack the spirit of, or morals of, Old Testament stories. I, specifically, found this very useful, as both a general tactic, and as a specific use of said tactic. I spend most of my time arguing with dumb American Christians.
great approach for a the right audience, which seems to be implied by the author.
If you ask the discussion to step back and look at a broader range of history- point out all of the other gods that humanity has had to try and decide whether or not the gods were real gods or man made. What criteria would make you decide they were invented?
Then, what if during this exercise, you happened upon Christianity and saw that it started with stories of genocide, laws to support slavery and general misogyny. Wouldn't you dismiss this god because the authors of the religion were obviously only regurgitating the immature morality of their day?
If it were founded by a true god by true prophets, one would expect a very evolved morality. Instead, we see an incredibly immature one, just as you would expect from men of the time.
I made a video on this topic that you might like.
(Michael Pawluk is right, although I don't know about those artifacts...)
The most effective response to 'Hitler was an Atheist!' is to inform the other party that Adolf Hitler was actually a Christian. Roman Catholic actually. Do your research.
It's just that he became a nut case and did inhuman things. It is not a case of his twisted take on religion or a lack thereof - it's what he lead that is so horrible. Every person of faith who wants to use that line of reasoning for reason, blame, or explanation is using it for the wrong reasons. (Well obviously, because the statement is incorrect anyway.)
A person can claim ignorance as their excuse, even insist on the Atheist argument regardless, but the reality is that the argument is there to make themselves feel better. ...Safer for having faith of their own, safer by further separating themselves from a man who 'did not believe in God', reasoning that lack of faith contributed then to the horror of Hitler's regime, and trying to reason to other Atheists what a huge sin it is to not follow God - to not have faith, and to lump a man given a label of 'Atheist' in with that pack in order to further condemn Atheists of today. For shame.
you are kick ass i had never thought to do this before :)
Here's a better way to respond to the statement "Hitler was an Atheist."
"No he wasn't."
Shot down in flames churchy.
..incidentally, when the universe was a zillionth of a second old and a zillionth of a parsec across, there was no space and all matter was connected. A zillionth of a second then was equivalent to a zillion years now and things probably would have evolved which were connected across the entire universe of matter and could use the computing power of the entire universe to hatch their cunning survival strategies one of which was probably to create observers that could collapse the wave function and therefore bring stability to the highly unstable expanding singularity in which they existed during that epoch.
I say 'probably' because I don't know any more than you do, but then again, I'm not calling other people's beliefs ridiculous am I? It's all undisprovable.
Know only what you know dudes.
It's discussions like this that make me avoid discussions like this, lol. If someone believes in ancient folklore and even does it literally, they are not logical people or are not concerned with being logical about that one issue (Religious faith). Therefore, I wouldn't even bother attempting to use logic on them. It's like when they use their irrational assumptions about improvable beings to argue something scientific. Their way of thinking doesn't work on us and our way of thinking won't work on them.
@dR dMO - You completely miss the point of this piece, as do others. You can go around in circles about whether or not Hitler was an atheist all you want. However, there is a better way to put the Christian back on the defensive. The 'Hitler was an atheist' argument, while bad, is nevertheless a moral argument. So, why not just agree with the Christian that genocide is wrong and ask him or her how he or she can condemn Hitler on the one hand for commanding genocide yet defend their own God on the other for also commanding genocide.
@JD from Hoeno - If you assume from the start that Christians must be fundamentally illogical then you've killed any chance of fruitful conversation before you even begin. The fact is, not every Christian is as deluded as you make them out to be - and you cannot possible know the extent of their faith before talking to one. There are many ex-Christians out there who became persuaded by the arguments for atheism - some of them from evangelical or fundamentalist leanings.
To give up before you start will never help counter the religious mindset as needs to be done.
Give it up man. I've had this same argument with my Baptist friend a million times. Apparently gods are justified in killing. You can't convert Christians to atheism. You're up against a solid rock of denial.
Originally Posted By TakoYou can't convert Christians to atheism. You're up against a solid rock of denial.
That is absolutely not true. There are plenty of examples of former Christians who later became atheists. Sam Harris says that he receives thousands of e-mails from former Christians who were persuaded by the arguments in favor of atheism. If everyone shared your negative attitude I am sure that there would be far fewer.
Hitler was atheist, and bald is a hair color. I would argue that anyone who spent even a little bit of time studying the history of Germany prior to Hitler would know that the notion of him being atheist are patently false, but then I would then realize that the kind of person making this argument does so because of a specific lack of study altogether.
Hitler was very much working within the common notion that the Jews were evil, a very common sentiment in Europe, even prior to the Depression the world was going through at the time. as some have pointed out, Hitler was acting within the construct of the 'evil Jew' passed down from Martin Luther's time, including the Spanish Inquisition which attempted to purge Spain of non-Christians (this was when many Jews relocated to Muslim locations like Turkey, where they were welcomed with open arms). One need only read Mein Kampf to see this belief expressed: “Hence today I believe that I am acting in accordance with the will of the Almighty Creator: by defending myself against the Jew, I am fighting for the work of the Lord.” Not very atheist sounding, is it?
Something I think a tad ironic is that the Nazi Party itself was built in a response against communism, a political position generally more associated with atheism and the absence of religion in government.
Secular schools can never be tolerated because such a school has no religious instruction and a general moral instruction without a religious foundation is built on air; consequently, all character training and religion must be derived from faith.... We need believing people.
-- Adolf Hitler, April 26, 1933
I would like to thank Providence and the Almighty for choosing me of all people to be allowed to wage this battle for Germany.
-- Adolf Hitler
God gave the savior to the German people. We have faith, deep and unshakeable faith, that he was sent to us by God to save Germany.
--Hermann Goering, speaking of Hitler
No, I don't know that atheists should be considered as citizens, nor should they be considered as patriots. This is one nation under God.
-- George Bush Sr., to a reporter in 1988
A person who is guided by God will never be misguided by anyone.
-- Osama Bin Laden
We're being guided by God.
-- Bush speechwriter Michael Gerson
George Bush was not elected by a majority of the voters in the United States. He was appointed by God.
-- Lt. Gen. William Boykin, the defense undersecretary in charge of hunting down top terrorists in Iraq and Afghanistan
The "wall of separation between church and state" is a metaphor based on bad history, a metaphor which has proved useless as a guide to judging. It should be frankly and explicitly abandoned.
-- William Rehnquist, Supreme Court
I want you to just let a wave of intolerance wash over you. I want you to let a wave of hatred wash over you. Yes, hate is good.... Our goal is a Christian nation. We have a Biblical duty, we are called by God, to conquer this country. We don't want equal time. We don't want pluralism."
--Randall Terry, quoted in The News-Sentinel, Fort Wayne, Indiana, August 16, 1993
We have no king but Jesus.
--John Ashcroft, May 8, 1999
We're going to bring back God and the Bible and drive the gods of secular humanism right out of the public schools of America.
--Pat Buchanan, at an anti-gay rally in Des Moines, Iowa, February 11, 1996
The idea that religion and politics don't mix was invented by the Devil to keep Christians from running their own country.
-- Rev. Jerry Falwell
After the Christian majority takes control, pluralism will be seen as immoral and evil and the state will not permit anybody the right to practice evil.
--Gary Potter, president of Catholics for Christian Political Action
The Christian community has a golden opportunity to train an army of dedicated teachers who can invade the public school classrooms and use them to influence the nation for Christ.
--D. James Kennedy, Coral Ridge Ministries, 1993
The Constitution of the United States, for instance, is a marvelous document for self-government by the Christian people. But the minute you turn the document into the hands of non-Christian people and atheistic people they can use it to destroy the very foundation of our society. And that's what's been happening.
The feminist agenda is not about equal rights for women. It is about a socialist, anti-family political movement that encourages women to leave their husbands, kill their children, practice witchcraft, destroy capitalism, and become lesbians.
I think we ought to close Halloween down. Do you want your children to dress up as witches? The Druids used to dress up like this when they were doing human sacrifice... [Your children] are acting out Satanic rituals and participating in it, and don't even realize it.
Get the few liberals out. If you don't do it, it ain't gonna be done. You will be doing the Lord's work, and he will richly bless you for it.
--Sen. James Inhofe, R-Oklahoma, Christian Coalition's Road to Victory Conference, 2002, Washington D.C
If I do not return to the pulpit this weekend, millions of people will go to hell.
-- Jimmy Swaggart
CHRISTIANS AND FASCISTS ...... wait... thats redundant.
I'm a little surprised that no one has hit upon the answer yet. Genocide is only bad sometimes! Genocide against the good is evil, and genocide against the evil is good. It's like the old Biblical saying goes: "If you show kindness to the cruel, you end up showing cruelty to the kind."
Hitler paid some lip-service to Catholicism, but truly he was a pagan and a great many high-ranking SS officers were homosexual.
Idk, Hitler was just immoral for me
as for God, God says "the punishment for sin is death". The Israelites were opposed and God wanted all the sinners who opposed them killed. If God wants someone to be killed, it is because they sin, cause reckless harm to others, and have NO DESIRE or CHANCE of living a just life and following God.
God tells them to kill off SIN. The Amakelites ATTACKED Israel and were not going to repay them or say sorry. God has NO TOLERANCE for sin. THose who sin today have a chance of becoming saved. That's why God does not command murder on them. He commanded murder on cold-blooded, non reformable murders, because there was no prison to fit them all, they could not outrun them, and they were not going to stop killing.
GOD could have stopped them from attacking, but he gives every human free will to do what they want. He doesnt feel its fair to hold someone against their will.
PS. A sinner can cover the entire village with sin. Everything was sinned on, the babies, oxes, etc. THey were born of pagans and God says "you cannot make a bad object into good" EX. , CHristian Hip Hop/Rock, Egyptian artifacts, Sphinx, etc. Also, God has mercy on babies/animals and they will go to heaven because they have no free will.
If you anagram mother-in-law, it is woman hitler. Respect your in-laws dammit!
hitler was also heterosexual...so is that wrong now too?
India is my favorite vacationing spot! It might not be the most classy place to visit, but I still choose it over everywhere else.
Yeah, I'm afraid this argument would only work with Jews on account of Christians (surprise, surprise) put a little more emphasis on the peaceful teachings of Christ.