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	<title>Comments on: The atheist vs the Christian theologian</title>
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	<link>http://conversationalatheist.com/2009/09/the-atheist-vs-the-christian-theologian/</link>
	<description>Atheists need to make more of an effort to be heard in their daily life.</description>
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		<title>By: Timothy</title>
		<link>http://conversationalatheist.com/2009/09/the-atheist-vs-the-christian-theologian/comment-page-1/#comment-2528</link>
		<dc:creator>Timothy</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 01 Mar 2010 16:52:46 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://conversationalatheist.com/?p=1185#comment-2528</guid>
		<description>So, you&#039;re assuming the main point of religion is belief in a divine being?  Funny, we adherents don&#039;t regard that as particularly important. It&#039;s part of a sociological group to which we belong, for most people one they were born into. I could think of far more concrete, current reasons, e.g., to renounce my citizenship (not to speak of national mythology into which I don&#039;t buy and past atrocities committed by the government which I disdain). But I think I&#039;ll keep my citizenship--after all, it&#039;s part of who I am and I actually like many aspects of it. I think I&#039;ll maintain my religious affiliation too for the same reasons. &lt;div class=&quot;comment-remix-meta&quot;&gt;&lt;a href=&quot;#&quot; class=&quot;replyto&quot; onclick=&quot;replyto(&#039;2528&#039;,&#039;Timothy&#039;); return false;&quot;&gt;Reply&lt;/a&gt;  &#124; &lt;a href=&quot;#&quot; class=&quot;quote&quot; onclick=&quot;quote(&#039;2528&#039;,&#039;Timothy&#039;,&#039;So, you&#039;re assuming the main point of religion is belief in a divine being?  Funny, we adherents don&#039;t regard that as particularly important. It&#039;s part of a sociological group to which we belong, for most people one they were born into. I could think of far more concrete, current reasons, e.g., to renounce my citizenship (not to speak of national mythology into which I don&#039;t buy and past atrocities committed by the government which I disdain). But I think I&#039;ll keep my citizenship--after all, it&#039;s part of who I am and I actually like many aspects of it. I think I&#039;ll maintain my religious affiliation too for the same reasons. &#039;); return false;&quot;&gt;Quote&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/div&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>So, you&#039;re assuming the main point of religion is belief in a divine being?  Funny, we adherents don&#039;t regard that as particularly important. It&#039;s part of a sociological group to which we belong, for most people one they were born into. I could think of far more concrete, current reasons, e.g., to renounce my citizenship (not to speak of national mythology into which I don&#039;t buy and past atrocities committed by the government which I disdain). But I think I&#039;ll keep my citizenship--after all, it&#039;s part of who I am and I actually like many aspects of it. I think I&#039;ll maintain my religious affiliation too for the same reasons.
<div class="comment-remix-meta"><a href="#" class="replyto" onclick="replyto('2528','Timothy'); return false;">Reply</a>  | <a href="#" class="quote" onclick="quote('2528','Timothy','So, you&amp;#039;re assuming the main point of religion is belief in a divine being?  Funny, we adherents don&amp;#039;t regard that as particularly important. It&amp;#039;s part of a sociological group to which we belong, for most people one they were born into. I could think of far more concrete, current reasons, e.g., to renounce my citizenship (not to speak of national mythology into which I don&amp;#039;t buy and past atrocities committed by the government which I disdain). But I think I&amp;#039;ll keep my citizenship--after all, it&amp;#039;s part of who I am and I actually like many aspects of it. I think I&amp;#039;ll maintain my religious affiliation too for the same reasons. '); return false;">Quote</a></div>
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		<title>By: Uruk</title>
		<link>http://conversationalatheist.com/2009/09/the-atheist-vs-the-christian-theologian/comment-page-1/#comment-2410</link>
		<dc:creator>Uruk</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 18 Feb 2010 01:41:19 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://conversationalatheist.com/?p=1185#comment-2410</guid>
		<description>I&#039;m please to know that the idea eternal punishment irks you. I applaud you for this. I think that&#039;s a very good thing that people will question that aspect of religions that teach or imply such things. I grew up fundamentalist and believe my loved ones who didn&#039;t believe as I did when to eternal punishment. Hard to live with, indeed! Also, hard to stand against eternal punishment in religious circles such as fundamentalist Christianity.  
 
As for our universe evolving out of substances that had no first cause-- no reputable scientist says that. The cause of the big bang is simply an unknown. But something caused it. They level of mystery is no different from the mystery of  God existing as a first cause without beginning, end, or explanation. 
 
The big bang is not that crazy of an idea-- even if it is wrong. You just have to understand a small amount of the science that points to that idea. The big bang may not be what started our universe, but the idea is a worthwhile one to consider. 
 
The sun releases it&#039;s tremendous amount of energy due to fusion. Hydrogen atoms are fused into heavier elements. This process causes the atoms to release a tremendous amount of energy (E=mc^2 is at work here). The light and heat from the sun comes because elements are being created right there in the sun. 
 
Massive amounts of energy converts into mass when it cools. So imagine a release of energy infinitesimally larger than our sun. If our sun can create all the elements in the periodic table just through nuclear fusion, then a massive release of energy can create the building blocks of atoms. 
 
If such an explosion happened, the radiation from it would still be present today. And back in the 1960&#039;s, Bell Labs was doing an experiment with satellites. They ran into a lot of static interference and couldn&#039;t explain why. At the same time, scientists were exploring the beginnings of the big band hypothesis. When they heard about what Bell Labs was dealing with, they investigated. That background static is the radiation left over from a large release of energy-- just like what they figured the &quot;big bang&quot; would cause. The scientists predicted the background radiation-- the guys at Bell Labs accidentally found it independently. All scientists involved-- including those at Bell Labs-- received a Nobel Prize in physics. 
 
So, something exploded billions of years ago. I will admit however, why and how it happened is still a great mystery.  &lt;div class=&quot;comment-remix-meta&quot;&gt;&lt;a href=&quot;#&quot; class=&quot;replyto&quot; onclick=&quot;replyto(&#039;2410&#039;,&#039;Uruk&#039;); return false;&quot;&gt;Reply&lt;/a&gt;  &#124; &lt;a href=&quot;#&quot; class=&quot;quote&quot; onclick=&quot;quote(&#039;2410&#039;,&#039;Uruk&#039;,&#039;I&#039;m please to know that the idea eternal punishment irks you. I applaud you for this. I think that&#039;s a very good thing that people will question that aspect of religions that teach or imply such things. I grew up fundamentalist and believe my loved ones who didn&#039;t believe as I did when to eternal punishment. Hard to live with, indeed! Also, hard to stand against eternal punishment in religious circles such as fundamentalist Christianity.  \n \nAs for our universe evolving out of substances that had no first cause-- no reputable scientist says that. The cause of the big bang is simply an unknown. But something caused it. They level of mystery is no different from the mystery of  God existing as a first cause without beginning, end, or explanation. \n \nThe big bang is not that crazy of an idea-- even if it is wrong. You just have to understand a small amount of the science that points to that idea. The big bang may not be what started our universe, but the idea is a worthwhile one to consider. \n \nThe sun releases it&#039;s tremendous amount of energy due to fusion. Hydrogen atoms are fused into heavier elements. This process causes the atoms to release a tremendous amount of energy (E=mc^2 is at work here). The light and heat from the sun comes because elements are being created right there in the sun. \n \nMassive amounts of energy converts into mass when it cools. So imagine a release of energy infinitesimally larger than our sun. If our sun can create all the elements in the periodic table just through nuclear fusion, then a massive release of energy can create the building blocks of atoms. \n \nIf such an explosion happened, the radiation from it would still be present today. And back in the 1960&#039;s, Bell Labs was doing an experiment with satellites. They ran into a lot of static interference and couldn&#039;t explain why. At the same time, scientists were exploring the beginnings of the big band hypothesis. When they heard about what Bell Labs was dealing with, they investigated. That background static is the radiation left over from a large release of energy-- just like what they figured the &quot;big bang&quot; would cause. The scientists predicted the background radiation-- the guys at Bell Labs accidentally found it independently. All scientists involved-- including those at Bell Labs-- received a Nobel Prize in physics. \n \nSo, something exploded billions of years ago. I will admit however, why and how it happened is still a great mystery.  &#039;); return false;&quot;&gt;Quote&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/div&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I&#039;m please to know that the idea eternal punishment irks you. I applaud you for this. I think that&#039;s a very good thing that people will question that aspect of religions that teach or imply such things. I grew up fundamentalist and believe my loved ones who didn&#039;t believe as I did when to eternal punishment. Hard to live with, indeed! Also, hard to stand against eternal punishment in religious circles such as fundamentalist Christianity.  </p>
<p>As for our universe evolving out of substances that had no first cause-- no reputable scientist says that. The cause of the big bang is simply an unknown. But something caused it. They level of mystery is no different from the mystery of  God existing as a first cause without beginning, end, or explanation. </p>
<p>The big bang is not that crazy of an idea-- even if it is wrong. You just have to understand a small amount of the science that points to that idea. The big bang may not be what started our universe, but the idea is a worthwhile one to consider. </p>
<p>The sun releases it&#039;s tremendous amount of energy due to fusion. Hydrogen atoms are fused into heavier elements. This process causes the atoms to release a tremendous amount of energy (E=mc^2 is at work here). The light and heat from the sun comes because elements are being created right there in the sun. </p>
<p>Massive amounts of energy converts into mass when it cools. So imagine a release of energy infinitesimally larger than our sun. If our sun can create all the elements in the periodic table just through nuclear fusion, then a massive release of energy can create the building blocks of atoms. </p>
<p>If such an explosion happened, the radiation from it would still be present today. And back in the 1960&#039;s, Bell Labs was doing an experiment with satellites. They ran into a lot of static interference and couldn&#039;t explain why. At the same time, scientists were exploring the beginnings of the big band hypothesis. When they heard about what Bell Labs was dealing with, they investigated. That background static is the radiation left over from a large release of energy-- just like what they figured the &quot;big bang&quot; would cause. The scientists predicted the background radiation-- the guys at Bell Labs accidentally found it independently. All scientists involved-- including those at Bell Labs-- received a Nobel Prize in physics. </p>
<p>So, something exploded billions of years ago. I will admit however, why and how it happened is still a great mystery.
<div class="comment-remix-meta"><a href="#" class="replyto" onclick="replyto('2410','Uruk'); return false;">Reply</a>  | <a href="#" class="quote" onclick="quote('2410','Uruk','I&amp;#039;m please to know that the idea eternal punishment irks you. I applaud you for this. I think that&amp;#039;s a very good thing that people will question that aspect of religions that teach or imply such things. I grew up fundamentalist and believe my loved ones who didn&amp;#039;t believe as I did when to eternal punishment. Hard to live with, indeed! Also, hard to stand against eternal punishment in religious circles such as fundamentalist Christianity.  \n \nAs for our universe evolving out of substances that had no first cause-- no reputable scientist says that. The cause of the big bang is simply an unknown. But something caused it. They level of mystery is no different from the mystery of  God existing as a first cause without beginning, end, or explanation. \n \nThe big bang is not that crazy of an idea-- even if it is wrong. You just have to understand a small amount of the science that points to that idea. The big bang may not be what started our universe, but the idea is a worthwhile one to consider. \n \nThe sun releases it&amp;#039;s tremendous amount of energy due to fusion. Hydrogen atoms are fused into heavier elements. This process causes the atoms to release a tremendous amount of energy (E=mc^2 is at work here). The light and heat from the sun comes because elements are being created right there in the sun. \n \nMassive amounts of energy converts into mass when it cools. So imagine a release of energy infinitesimally larger than our sun. If our sun can create all the elements in the periodic table just through nuclear fusion, then a massive release of energy can create the building blocks of atoms. \n \nIf such an explosion happened, the radiation from it would still be present today. And back in the 1960&amp;#039;s, Bell Labs was doing an experiment with satellites. They ran into a lot of static interference and couldn&amp;#039;t explain why. At the same time, scientists were exploring the beginnings of the big band hypothesis. When they heard about what Bell Labs was dealing with, they investigated. That background static is the radiation left over from a large release of energy-- just like what they figured the &amp;quot;big bang&amp;quot; would cause. The scientists predicted the background radiation-- the guys at Bell Labs accidentally found it independently. All scientists involved-- including those at Bell Labs-- received a Nobel Prize in physics. \n \nSo, something exploded billions of years ago. I will admit however, why and how it happened is still a great mystery.  '); return false;">Quote</a></div>
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		<title>By: Rodger Tutt</title>
		<link>http://conversationalatheist.com/2009/09/the-atheist-vs-the-christian-theologian/comment-page-1/#comment-2401</link>
		<dc:creator>Rodger Tutt</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 17 Feb 2010 15:41:26 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://conversationalatheist.com/?p=1185#comment-2401</guid>
		<description>It is infinitely more difficult for me to be atheistic when I am asked to believe that Creation, with all of its awesome intricacies supposedly just evolved out of substances that had no first cause, than it is to believe that an intelligent Creator (i.e. Jesus Christ) started it all. (1Corinthians 8:6 &amp; Ephesians 3:9) 
 
My problem has never been, &#8220;Is there a God?&#8221; 
My problem has always been, &#8220;What is He like?&#8221; 
 
I think one of the primary causes of atheism is Christianity&#8217;s doctrine of everlasting suffering for everyone who dies without becoming a Christian. I would rather live out my life as an agnostic, and try to treat everyone the same way that I would like to be treated by them, and hope for the best in the next life, than try to love a god who would let anyone suffer forever. 
 
That is why I am glad there is evidence that God is not like that, e.g. 
&lt;a href=&quot;http://www.godfire.net/eby/circularity.html&quot; target=&quot;_blank&quot;&gt;http://www.godfire.net/eby/circularity.html&lt;/a&gt;   
 &lt;div class=&quot;comment-remix-meta&quot;&gt;&lt;a href=&quot;#&quot; class=&quot;replyto&quot; onclick=&quot;replyto(&#039;2401&#039;,&#039;Rodger Tutt&#039;); return false;&quot;&gt;Reply&lt;/a&gt;  &#124; &lt;a href=&quot;#&quot; class=&quot;quote&quot; onclick=&quot;quote(&#039;2401&#039;,&#039;Rodger Tutt&#039;,&#039;It is infinitely more difficult for me to be atheistic when I am asked to believe that Creation, with all of its awesome intricacies supposedly just evolved out of substances that had no first cause, than it is to believe that an intelligent Creator (i.e. Jesus Christ) started it all. (1Corinthians 8:6 &amp; Ephesians 3:9) \n \nMy problem has never been, &ldquo;Is there a God?&rdquo; \nMy problem has always been, &ldquo;What is He like?&rdquo; \n \nI think one of the primary causes of atheism is Christianity&rsquo;s doctrine of everlasting suffering for everyone who dies without becoming a Christian. I would rather live out my life as an agnostic, and try to treat everyone the same way that I would like to be treated by them, and hope for the best in the next life, than try to love a god who would let anyone suffer forever. \n \nThat is why I am glad there is evidence that God is not like that, e.g. \n&lt;a href=\&quot;http:\/\/www.godfire.net\/eby\/circularity.html\&quot; target=\&quot;_blank\&quot;&gt;http:\/\/www.godfire.net\/eby\/circularity.html&lt;\/a&gt;   \n &#039;); return false;&quot;&gt;Quote&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/div&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>It is infinitely more difficult for me to be atheistic when I am asked to believe that Creation, with all of its awesome intricacies supposedly just evolved out of substances that had no first cause, than it is to believe that an intelligent Creator (i.e. Jesus Christ) started it all. (1<a href="http://bible.oremus.org/?passage=Corinthians+8%3A6&amp;vnum=yes&amp;version=nrsv" class="bibleref" title="NRSV Corinthians 8:6">Corinthians 8:6</a> &amp; <a href="http://bible.oremus.org/?passage=Ephesians+3%3A9&amp;vnum=yes&amp;version=nrsv" class="bibleref" title="NRSV Ephesians 3:9">Ephesians 3:9</a>) </p>
<p>My problem has never been, &ldquo;Is there a God?&rdquo;<br />
My problem has always been, &ldquo;What is He like?&rdquo; </p>
<p>I think one of the primary causes of atheism is Christianity&rsquo;s doctrine of everlasting suffering for everyone who dies without becoming a Christian. I would rather live out my life as an agnostic, and try to treat everyone the same way that I would like to be treated by them, and hope for the best in the next life, than try to love a god who would let anyone suffer forever. </p>
<p>That is why I am glad there is evidence that God is not like that, e.g.<br />
<a href="http://www.godfire.net/eby/circularity.html" target="_blank">http://www.godfire.net/eby/circularity.html</a>   </p>
<div class="comment-remix-meta"><a href="#" class="replyto" onclick="replyto('2401','Rodger Tutt'); return false;">Reply</a>  | <a href="#" class="quote" onclick="quote('2401','Rodger Tutt','It is infinitely more difficult for me to be atheistic when I am asked to believe that Creation, with all of its awesome intricacies supposedly just evolved out of substances that had no first cause, than it is to believe that an intelligent Creator (i.e. Jesus Christ) started it all. (1Corinthians 8:6 &amp;amp; Ephesians 3:9) \n \nMy problem has never been, &amp;ldquo;Is there a God?&amp;rdquo; \nMy problem has always been, &amp;ldquo;What is He like?&amp;rdquo; \n \nI think one of the primary causes of atheism is Christianity&amp;rsquo;s doctrine of everlasting suffering for everyone who dies without becoming a Christian. I would rather live out my life as an agnostic, and try to treat everyone the same way that I would like to be treated by them, and hope for the best in the next life, than try to love a god who would let anyone suffer forever. \n \nThat is why I am glad there is evidence that God is not like that, e.g. \n&lt;a href=\&quot;http:\/\/www.godfire.net\/eby\/circularity.html\&quot; target=\&quot;_blank\&quot;&gt;http:\/\/www.godfire.net\/eby\/circularity.html&lt;\/a&gt;   \n '); return false;">Quote</a></div>
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		<title>By: Uruk</title>
		<link>http://conversationalatheist.com/2009/09/the-atheist-vs-the-christian-theologian/comment-page-1/#comment-1333</link>
		<dc:creator>Uruk</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 16 Oct 2009 02:56:56 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://conversationalatheist.com/?p=1185#comment-1333</guid>
		<description>&quot;I&#8217;m pleading with you to make the case to the ideal disinterested rational listener that your religious beliefs are more justified for you to believe than a person who thinks Zeus is the creator of the universe because the streetlights turn green when he prays to Zeus.&quot; 
 
Wow! I love that line! &lt;div class=&quot;comment-remix-meta&quot;&gt;&lt;a href=&quot;#&quot; class=&quot;replyto&quot; onclick=&quot;replyto(&#039;1333&#039;,&#039;Uruk&#039;); return false;&quot;&gt;Reply&lt;/a&gt;  &#124; &lt;a href=&quot;#&quot; class=&quot;quote&quot; onclick=&quot;quote(&#039;1333&#039;,&#039;Uruk&#039;,&#039;&quot;I&rsquo;m pleading with you to make the case to the ideal disinterested rational listener that your religious beliefs are more justified for you to believe than a person who thinks Zeus is the creator of the universe because the streetlights turn green when he prays to Zeus.&quot; \n \nWow! I love that line! &#039;); return false;&quot;&gt;Quote&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/div&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&quot;I&rsquo;m pleading with you to make the case to the ideal disinterested rational listener that your religious beliefs are more justified for you to believe than a person who thinks Zeus is the creator of the universe because the streetlights turn green when he prays to Zeus.&quot; </p>
<p>Wow! I love that line!
<div class="comment-remix-meta"><a href="#" class="replyto" onclick="replyto('1333','Uruk'); return false;">Reply</a>  | <a href="#" class="quote" onclick="quote('1333','Uruk','&amp;quot;I&amp;rsquo;m pleading with you to make the case to the ideal disinterested rational listener that your religious beliefs are more justified for you to believe than a person who thinks Zeus is the creator of the universe because the streetlights turn green when he prays to Zeus.&amp;quot; \n \nWow! I love that line! '); return false;">Quote</a></div>
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		<title>By: dustman6071</title>
		<link>http://conversationalatheist.com/2009/09/the-atheist-vs-the-christian-theologian/comment-page-1/#comment-1195</link>
		<dc:creator>dustman6071</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 29 Sep 2009 14:29:18 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://conversationalatheist.com/?p=1185#comment-1195</guid>
		<description>Mat, I&#039;m a Catholic, and by no means do I believe in a &quot;sky fairy.&quot;  It seems as if you&#039;re a bit confused in regards to the God of Christianity. 
 
I assume you consider yourself an atheist or at least an agnostic, is this a correct assumption? If so, why have you come to this conclusion? Or better said, &quot;belief&quot;? 
 
And please elaborate on why you feel it necessary to save those pesky Christians from themselves. &lt;div class=&quot;comment-remix-meta&quot;&gt;&lt;a href=&quot;#&quot; class=&quot;replyto&quot; onclick=&quot;replyto(&#039;1195&#039;,&#039;dustman6071&#039;); return false;&quot;&gt;Reply&lt;/a&gt;  &#124; &lt;a href=&quot;#&quot; class=&quot;quote&quot; onclick=&quot;quote(&#039;1195&#039;,&#039;dustman6071&#039;,&#039;Mat, I&#039;m a Catholic, and by no means do I believe in a &quot;sky fairy.&quot;  It seems as if you&#039;re a bit confused in regards to the God of Christianity. \n \nI assume you consider yourself an atheist or at least an agnostic, is this a correct assumption? If so, why have you come to this conclusion? Or better said, &quot;belief&quot;? \n \nAnd please elaborate on why you feel it necessary to save those pesky Christians from themselves. &#039;); return false;&quot;&gt;Quote&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/div&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Mat, I&#039;m a Catholic, and by no means do I believe in a &quot;sky fairy.&quot;  It seems as if you&#039;re a bit confused in regards to the God of Christianity. </p>
<p>I assume you consider yourself an atheist or at least an agnostic, is this a correct assumption? If so, why have you come to this conclusion? Or better said, &quot;belief&quot;? </p>
<p>And please elaborate on why you feel it necessary to save those pesky Christians from themselves.
<div class="comment-remix-meta"><a href="#" class="replyto" onclick="replyto('1195','dustman6071'); return false;">Reply</a>  | <a href="#" class="quote" onclick="quote('1195','dustman6071','Mat, I&amp;#039;m a Catholic, and by no means do I believe in a &amp;quot;sky fairy.&amp;quot;  It seems as if you&amp;#039;re a bit confused in regards to the God of Christianity. \n \nI assume you consider yourself an atheist or at least an agnostic, is this a correct assumption? If so, why have you come to this conclusion? Or better said, &amp;quot;belief&amp;quot;? \n \nAnd please elaborate on why you feel it necessary to save those pesky Christians from themselves. '); return false;">Quote</a></div>
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		<title>By: anti-supernaturalist</title>
		<link>http://conversationalatheist.com/2009/09/the-atheist-vs-the-christian-theologian/comment-page-1/#comment-1177</link>
		<dc:creator>anti-supernaturalist</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 27 Sep 2009 16:54:44 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://conversationalatheist.com/?p=1185#comment-1177</guid>
		<description>&lt;i&gt;Those not with us are against us.&lt;/i&gt; - Luke 11:23 NIV 
 
 &lt;b&gt;The Big Lie of the Big-3 Monster-theisms: 
Skeptics cannot undermine beliefs which require spiritual insight to believe!&lt;/b&gt; 
 
The Big Lie exemplifies a classic logical failure called an &quot;immunizing strategy.&quot; Only a believer can understand another believer&#8217;s beliefs. It is a form of begging the question -- presupposing without proof the very point at issue. 
 
An immunizing strategy amounts to deflecting away every request for reasoning &lt;i&gt;outside the charmed circle of language which only a believer could use.&lt;/i&gt; 
 
But, one pays dearly when immunizing a belief from criticism. It cuts off rational communication. The immunizer gives up the right to be classed as a &#8220;reasonable person&#8221; &#8212; in the common sense meaning used by courts of law. 
 
You cannot respond rationally to critics by saying that only those who are with me can understand what I have to say. &lt;i&gt;There must be some starting point in a discourse common to believer and to critic. Otherwise, there&#039;s nothing that &lt;b&gt;can&lt;/b&gt; be talked about.&lt;/i&gt; 
 
Now you know why a xian &#8220;conversion&#8221; sales job has always begun with purportedly &#8220;absurd&#8221; or &quot;paradoxical&quot; claims to induce belief. And to a rational ancient Greek nothing was more conceptually contradictory than a &quot;god on a cross.&quot; 
 
Ultimately, xianity cannot be refuted; it can only be dismantled. The de-deification of culture (including the sciences) is our task for the next 100 years. 
 
anti-supernaturalist &lt;div class=&quot;comment-remix-meta&quot;&gt;&lt;a href=&quot;#&quot; class=&quot;replyto&quot; onclick=&quot;replyto(&#039;1177&#039;,&#039;anti-supernaturalist&#039;); return false;&quot;&gt;Reply&lt;/a&gt;  &#124; &lt;a href=&quot;#&quot; class=&quot;quote&quot; onclick=&quot;quote(&#039;1177&#039;,&#039;anti-supernaturalist&#039;,&#039;&lt;i&gt;Those not with us are against us.&lt;\/i&gt; - Luke 11:23 NIV \n \n &lt;b&gt;The Big Lie of the Big-3 Monster-theisms: \nSkeptics cannot undermine beliefs which require spiritual insight to believe!&lt;\/b&gt; \n \nThe Big Lie exemplifies a classic logical failure called an &quot;immunizing strategy.&quot; Only a believer can understand another believer&rsquo;s beliefs. It is a form of begging the question -- presupposing without proof the very point at issue. \n \nAn immunizing strategy amounts to deflecting away every request for reasoning &lt;i&gt;outside the charmed circle of language which only a believer could use.&lt;\/i&gt; \n \nBut, one pays dearly when immunizing a belief from criticism. It cuts off rational communication. The immunizer gives up the right to be classed as a &ldquo;reasonable person&rdquo; &mdash; in the common sense meaning used by courts of law. \n \nYou cannot respond rationally to critics by saying that only those who are with me can understand what I have to say. &lt;i&gt;There must be some starting point in a discourse common to believer and to critic. Otherwise, there&#039;s nothing that &lt;b&gt;can&lt;\/b&gt; be talked about.&lt;\/i&gt; \n \nNow you know why a xian &ldquo;conversion&rdquo; sales job has always begun with purportedly &ldquo;absurd&rdquo; or &quot;paradoxical&quot; claims to induce belief. And to a rational ancient Greek nothing was more conceptually contradictory than a &quot;god on a cross.&quot; \n \nUltimately, xianity cannot be refuted; it can only be dismantled. The de-deification of culture (including the sciences) is our task for the next 100 years. \n \nanti-supernaturalist &#039;); return false;&quot;&gt;Quote&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/div&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><i>Those not with us are against us.</i> - <a href="http://biblegateway.com/bible?version=31&amp;passage=Luke+11%3A23" class="bibleref" title="NIV Luke 11:23">Luke 11:23 NIV</a> </p>
<p> <b>The Big Lie of the Big-3 Monster-theisms:<br />
Skeptics cannot undermine beliefs which require spiritual insight to believe!</b> </p>
<p>The Big Lie exemplifies a classic logical failure called an &quot;immunizing strategy.&quot; Only a believer can understand another believer&rsquo;s beliefs. It is a form of begging the question -- presupposing without proof the very point at issue. </p>
<p>An immunizing strategy amounts to deflecting away every request for reasoning <i>outside the charmed circle of language which only a believer could use.</i> </p>
<p>But, one pays dearly when immunizing a belief from criticism. It cuts off rational communication. The immunizer gives up the right to be classed as a &ldquo;reasonable person&rdquo; &mdash; in the common sense meaning used by courts of law. </p>
<p>You cannot respond rationally to critics by saying that only those who are with me can understand what I have to say. <i>There must be some starting point in a discourse common to believer and to critic. Otherwise, there&#039;s nothing that <b>can</b> be talked about.</i> </p>
<p>Now you know why a xian &ldquo;conversion&rdquo; sales job has always begun with purportedly &ldquo;absurd&rdquo; or &quot;paradoxical&quot; claims to induce belief. And to a rational ancient Greek nothing was more conceptually contradictory than a &quot;god on a cross.&quot; </p>
<p>Ultimately, xianity cannot be refuted; it can only be dismantled. The de-deification of culture (including the sciences) is our task for the next 100 years. </p>
<p>anti-supernaturalist
<div class="comment-remix-meta"><a href="#" class="replyto" onclick="replyto('1177','anti-supernaturalist'); return false;">Reply</a>  | <a href="#" class="quote" onclick="quote('1177','anti-supernaturalist','&lt;i&gt;Those not with us are against us.&lt;\/i&gt; - Luke 11:23 NIV \n \n &lt;b&gt;The Big Lie of the Big-3 Monster-theisms: \nSkeptics cannot undermine beliefs which require spiritual insight to believe!&lt;\/b&gt; \n \nThe Big Lie exemplifies a classic logical failure called an &amp;quot;immunizing strategy.&amp;quot; Only a believer can understand another believer&amp;rsquo;s beliefs. It is a form of begging the question -- presupposing without proof the very point at issue. \n \nAn immunizing strategy amounts to deflecting away every request for reasoning &lt;i&gt;outside the charmed circle of language which only a believer could use.&lt;\/i&gt; \n \nBut, one pays dearly when immunizing a belief from criticism. It cuts off rational communication. The immunizer gives up the right to be classed as a &amp;ldquo;reasonable person&amp;rdquo; &amp;mdash; in the common sense meaning used by courts of law. \n \nYou cannot respond rationally to critics by saying that only those who are with me can understand what I have to say. &lt;i&gt;There must be some starting point in a discourse common to believer and to critic. Otherwise, there&amp;#039;s nothing that &lt;b&gt;can&lt;\/b&gt; be talked about.&lt;\/i&gt; \n \nNow you know why a xian &amp;ldquo;conversion&amp;rdquo; sales job has always begun with purportedly &amp;ldquo;absurd&amp;rdquo; or &amp;quot;paradoxical&amp;quot; claims to induce belief. And to a rational ancient Greek nothing was more conceptually contradictory than a &amp;quot;god on a cross.&amp;quot; \n \nUltimately, xianity cannot be refuted; it can only be dismantled. The de-deification of culture (including the sciences) is our task for the next 100 years. \n \nanti-supernaturalist '); return false;">Quote</a></div>
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		<title>By: Ezmerelda</title>
		<link>http://conversationalatheist.com/2009/09/the-atheist-vs-the-christian-theologian/comment-page-1/#comment-1101</link>
		<dc:creator>Ezmerelda</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 20 Sep 2009 17:13:39 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://conversationalatheist.com/?p=1185#comment-1101</guid>
		<description>Over the years I have engaged numerous believers who view themselves as intellectuals.  You can tell them apart from the follower types because they use such phrases as, &quot;According to.... (name a really obscure Christian fanatic),&quot; or &quot;Let me assure you that.....(fill in the blank), and, of course, &quot;Ahh, you must mean the famous argument...:&quot;  LOL!   
 
Not-so-intellectual believers are more concrete.   &quot;God make coincidences.&quot;  I learned that from a recovering alcoholic.   I also learned that a &quot;higher power&quot; can be anything.  It was suggested to me that I could call a door knob a &quot;higher power&quot; if I wanted.  The justification for belief in any higher power was this question:  &quot;Are you the most powerful person on earth?  No?  Well, then, there is a higher power.&quot;  (I tried really hard not to roll my eyeballs.) 
 
And, of course, every argument with a devoted believer ends with, &quot;It says so in the Bible.&quot; 
 
To that, I roll my eyeballs. &lt;div class=&quot;comment-remix-meta&quot;&gt;&lt;a href=&quot;#&quot; class=&quot;replyto&quot; onclick=&quot;replyto(&#039;1101&#039;,&#039;Ezmerelda&#039;); return false;&quot;&gt;Reply&lt;/a&gt;  &#124; &lt;a href=&quot;#&quot; class=&quot;quote&quot; onclick=&quot;quote(&#039;1101&#039;,&#039;Ezmerelda&#039;,&#039;Over the years I have engaged numerous believers who view themselves as intellectuals.  You can tell them apart from the follower types because they use such phrases as, &quot;According to.... (name a really obscure Christian fanatic),&quot; or &quot;Let me assure you that.....(fill in the blank), and, of course, &quot;Ahh, you must mean the famous argument...:&quot;  LOL!   \n \nNot-so-intellectual believers are more concrete.   &quot;God make coincidences.&quot;  I learned that from a recovering alcoholic.   I also learned that a &quot;higher power&quot; can be anything.  It was suggested to me that I could call a door knob a &quot;higher power&quot; if I wanted.  The justification for belief in any higher power was this question:  &quot;Are you the most powerful person on earth?  No?  Well, then, there is a higher power.&quot;  (I tried really hard not to roll my eyeballs.) \n \nAnd, of course, every argument with a devoted believer ends with, &quot;It says so in the Bible.&quot; \n \nTo that, I roll my eyeballs. &#039;); return false;&quot;&gt;Quote&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/div&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Over the years I have engaged numerous believers who view themselves as intellectuals.  You can tell them apart from the follower types because they use such phrases as, &quot;According to.... (name a really obscure Christian fanatic),&quot; or &quot;Let me assure you that.....(fill in the blank), and, of course, &quot;Ahh, you must mean the famous argument...:&quot;  LOL!   </p>
<p>Not-so-intellectual believers are more concrete.   &quot;God make coincidences.&quot;  I learned that from a recovering alcoholic.   I also learned that a &quot;higher power&quot; can be anything.  It was suggested to me that I could call a door knob a &quot;higher power&quot; if I wanted.  The justification for belief in any higher power was this question:  &quot;Are you the most powerful person on earth?  No?  Well, then, there is a higher power.&quot;  (I tried really hard not to roll my eyeballs.) </p>
<p>And, of course, every argument with a devoted believer ends with, &quot;It says so in the Bible.&quot; </p>
<p>To that, I roll my eyeballs.
<div class="comment-remix-meta"><a href="#" class="replyto" onclick="replyto('1101','Ezmerelda'); return false;">Reply</a>  | <a href="#" class="quote" onclick="quote('1101','Ezmerelda','Over the years I have engaged numerous believers who view themselves as intellectuals.  You can tell them apart from the follower types because they use such phrases as, &amp;quot;According to.... (name a really obscure Christian fanatic),&amp;quot; or &amp;quot;Let me assure you that.....(fill in the blank), and, of course, &amp;quot;Ahh, you must mean the famous argument...:&amp;quot;  LOL!   \n \nNot-so-intellectual believers are more concrete.   &amp;quot;God make coincidences.&amp;quot;  I learned that from a recovering alcoholic.   I also learned that a &amp;quot;higher power&amp;quot; can be anything.  It was suggested to me that I could call a door knob a &amp;quot;higher power&amp;quot; if I wanted.  The justification for belief in any higher power was this question:  &amp;quot;Are you the most powerful person on earth?  No?  Well, then, there is a higher power.&amp;quot;  (I tried really hard not to roll my eyeballs.) \n \nAnd, of course, every argument with a devoted believer ends with, &amp;quot;It says so in the Bible.&amp;quot; \n \nTo that, I roll my eyeballs. '); return false;">Quote</a></div>
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		<title>By: Efrique</title>
		<link>http://conversationalatheist.com/2009/09/the-atheist-vs-the-christian-theologian/comment-page-1/#comment-1035</link>
		<dc:creator>Efrique</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 12 Sep 2009 04:57:36 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://conversationalatheist.com/?p=1185#comment-1035</guid>
		<description>So in 50AD, it would have been right not to believe in Christ, because there were more Zeus-believers than christ believers? 
 
 &lt;div class=&quot;comment-remix-meta&quot;&gt;&lt;a href=&quot;#&quot; class=&quot;replyto&quot; onclick=&quot;replyto(&#039;1035&#039;,&#039;Efrique&#039;); return false;&quot;&gt;Reply&lt;/a&gt;  &#124; &lt;a href=&quot;#&quot; class=&quot;quote&quot; onclick=&quot;quote(&#039;1035&#039;,&#039;Efrique&#039;,&#039;So in 50AD, it would have been right not to believe in Christ, because there were more Zeus-believers than christ believers? \n \n &#039;); return false;&quot;&gt;Quote&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/div&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>So in 50AD, it would have been right not to believe in Christ, because there were more Zeus-believers than christ believers? </p>
<div class="comment-remix-meta"><a href="#" class="replyto" onclick="replyto('1035','Efrique'); return false;">Reply</a>  | <a href="#" class="quote" onclick="quote('1035','Efrique','So in 50AD, it would have been right not to believe in Christ, because there were more Zeus-believers than christ believers? \n \n '); return false;">Quote</a></div>
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		<title>By: Jaume</title>
		<link>http://conversationalatheist.com/2009/09/the-atheist-vs-the-christian-theologian/comment-page-1/#comment-1033</link>
		<dc:creator>Jaume</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 11 Sep 2009 23:52:32 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://conversationalatheist.com/?p=1185#comment-1033</guid>
		<description>&quot;the majority of people who do not believe in Zeus is larger than the majority of people who do not believe in Yahweh&quot; 
 
You have a potential winning argument here. I&#039;m not sure whether or not Greeks were more numerous than Hebrews during the classical era, so assume you chose Ra or Amon instead of Zeus. I guess even your theologian won&#039;t deny that 3000 years ago, Egyptians were many times more numerous than Hebrews, 
 
Point out to your theologian that even if his argument was valid, it would necessarily be within a limited timeframe - since belief in Yahveh only outperformed belief in the ancient Egyptian pantheon less than 2000 years ago. &lt;div class=&quot;comment-remix-meta&quot;&gt;&lt;a href=&quot;#&quot; class=&quot;replyto&quot; onclick=&quot;replyto(&#039;1033&#039;,&#039;Jaume&#039;); return false;&quot;&gt;Reply&lt;/a&gt;  &#124; &lt;a href=&quot;#&quot; class=&quot;quote&quot; onclick=&quot;quote(&#039;1033&#039;,&#039;Jaume&#039;,&#039;&quot;the majority of people who do not believe in Zeus is larger than the majority of people who do not believe in Yahweh&quot; \n \nYou have a potential winning argument here. I&#039;m not sure whether or not Greeks were more numerous than Hebrews during the classical era, so assume you chose Ra or Amon instead of Zeus. I guess even your theologian won&#039;t deny that 3000 years ago, Egyptians were many times more numerous than Hebrews, \n \nPoint out to your theologian that even if his argument was valid, it would necessarily be within a limited timeframe - since belief in Yahveh only outperformed belief in the ancient Egyptian pantheon less than 2000 years ago. &#039;); return false;&quot;&gt;Quote&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/div&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&quot;the majority of people who do not believe in Zeus is larger than the majority of people who do not believe in Yahweh&quot; </p>
<p>You have a potential winning argument here. I&#039;m not sure whether or not Greeks were more numerous than Hebrews during the classical era, so assume you chose Ra or Amon instead of Zeus. I guess even your theologian won&#039;t deny that 3000 years ago, Egyptians were many times more numerous than Hebrews, </p>
<p>Point out to your theologian that even if his argument was valid, it would necessarily be within a limited timeframe - since belief in Yahveh only outperformed belief in the ancient Egyptian pantheon less than 2000 years ago.
<div class="comment-remix-meta"><a href="#" class="replyto" onclick="replyto('1033','Jaume'); return false;">Reply</a>  | <a href="#" class="quote" onclick="quote('1033','Jaume','&amp;quot;the majority of people who do not believe in Zeus is larger than the majority of people who do not believe in Yahweh&amp;quot; \n \nYou have a potential winning argument here. I&amp;#039;m not sure whether or not Greeks were more numerous than Hebrews during the classical era, so assume you chose Ra or Amon instead of Zeus. I guess even your theologian won&amp;#039;t deny that 3000 years ago, Egyptians were many times more numerous than Hebrews, \n \nPoint out to your theologian that even if his argument was valid, it would necessarily be within a limited timeframe - since belief in Yahveh only outperformed belief in the ancient Egyptian pantheon less than 2000 years ago. '); return false;">Quote</a></div>
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		<title>By: Tweets that mention The atheist vs the Christian theologian &#124; Conversational Atheist -- Topsy.com</title>
		<link>http://conversationalatheist.com/2009/09/the-atheist-vs-the-christian-theologian/comment-page-1/#comment-1032</link>
		<dc:creator>Tweets that mention The atheist vs the Christian theologian &#124; Conversational Atheist -- Topsy.com</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 11 Sep 2009 22:56:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://conversationalatheist.com/?p=1185#comment-1032</guid>
		<description>[...] This post was mentioned on Twitter by george_good. george_good said: I think this is worth the read http://bit.ly/CW7cw #atheist [...]&lt;div class=&quot;comment-remix-meta&quot;&gt;&lt;a href=&quot;#&quot; class=&quot;replyto&quot; onclick=&quot;replyto(&#039;1032&#039;,&#039;Tweets that mention The atheist vs the Christian theologian &#124; Conversational Atheist -- Topsy.com&#039;); return false;&quot;&gt;Reply&lt;/a&gt;  &#124; &lt;a href=&quot;#&quot; class=&quot;quote&quot; onclick=&quot;quote(&#039;1032&#039;,&#039;Tweets that mention The atheist vs the Christian theologian &#124; Conversational Atheist -- Topsy.com&#039;,&#039;&#091;...&#093; This post was mentioned on Twitter by george_good. george_good said: I think this is worth the read http:\/\/bit.ly\/CW7cw #atheist &#091;...&#093;&#039;); return false;&quot;&gt;Quote&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/div&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] This post was mentioned on Twitter by george_good. george_good said: I think this is worth the read <a href="http://bit.ly/CW7cw" rel="nofollow">http://bit.ly/CW7cw</a> #atheist [...]
<div class="comment-remix-meta"><a href="#" class="replyto" onclick="replyto('1032','Tweets that mention The atheist vs the Christian theologian | Conversational Atheist -- Topsy.com'); return false;">Reply</a>  | <a href="#" class="quote" onclick="quote('1032','Tweets that mention The atheist vs the Christian theologian | Conversational Atheist -- Topsy.com','&amp;#91;...&amp;#93; This post was mentioned on Twitter by george_good. george_good said: I think this is worth the read http:\/\/bit.ly\/CW7cw #atheist &amp;#91;...&amp;#93;'); return false;">Quote</a></div>
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