Comments on: Failed prophecies and intellectual honesty http://conversationalatheist.com/2009/07/failed-prophecies-and-intellectual-honesty/ Atheists need to make more of an effort to be heard in their daily life. Mon, 19 Dec 2011 04:51:46 +0000 hourly 1 http://wordpress.org/?v= By: Aristobulus http://conversationalatheist.com/2009/07/failed-prophecies-and-intellectual-honesty/comment-page-1/#comment-3486 Aristobulus Fri, 18 Jun 2010 05:24:31 +0000 http://conversationalatheist.com/?p=1113#comment-3486 The intellectua honesty of all, Christian or not, is needed by all involvedin this discussion. Thee was a time when I was very embarrassed by Matthew's work and so-called prophetic fulfillments. Howbeit,in time and through much study, hardship and pain I came to find out about Jewish interpretive methods that, at that time in the late Second Jewish Commonwealth, were consdered legitimate and would not have been questioned by anyone in the Jewish world. Matthew builds and builds on what he allege as his book progresses, pushing the envelope, so-to-speak, till at last he crosses into what appears at first blush to be the frankly ridiculous: a man put to death will rise again and come back in clouds with heavenly armies to destroy a Temple which is better than 500 years old, end a religious system which is close to or better than 1,500 years old and found a "CHURCH" that will never be destroyed. It was all so crazy! And it ALL came true! The entire NT banks on the fact that a dead man arose. The entire NT banks on the idea that that risen man would be seen coming on the clouds at the time of the Destruction of Jerusalem (Matt. 24, Makk 13, and Luke 21) . Something similar had happened for the Maccabees, who were badly outnumbered by the Seluecids: battallions of angels had appeared over Jerusalem and the Macc. Revolt, with Heaven's help, succeeded. Now Jesus in Matthew 10:23 and 16:27-28 and Matt. 24:29-34 promises to do the same on behalf of the Apostles and first Christians. Truly unlikely promises, right? Dissertation 3, Book 5 Chapter 13 records the arrival of the heavenly troops over Herod's Temple and the departure of spirits through the great doors into the clouds! You have to read it for yourself. The accunt can also be found in Tacitus' Histories. So Peshar and Peshat and Midrash and Sod, and all the other interpretive nuances of the NT was shared by all in the Jewish universe in general. What makes the difference is the efficacy of the claims. Did Jesus arise? Did he return? Has his church survived? Today there are more than 2.8 billion Christians, and globally over 200,000 baptisms every day. I would take Matthew seriously,even if Christians are [now] under the impression that the Second Coming is yet future.<div class="comment-remix-meta"><a href="#" class="replyto" onclick="replyto('3486','Aristobulus'); return false;">Reply</a> | <a href="#" class="quote" onclick="quote('3486','Aristobulus','The intellectua honesty of all, Christian or not, is needed by all involvedin this discussion. Thee was a time when I was very embarrassed by Matthew\'s work and so-called prophetic fulfillments. Howbeit,in time and through much study, hardship and pain I came to find out about Jewish interpretive methods that, at that time in the late Second Jewish Commonwealth, were consdered legitimate and would not have been questioned by anyone in the Jewish world. Matthew builds and builds on what he allege as his book progresses, pushing the envelope, so-to-speak, till at last he crosses into what appears at first blush to be the frankly ridiculous: a man put to death will rise again and come back in clouds with heavenly armies to destroy a Temple which is better than 500 years old, end a religious system which is close to or better than 1,500 years old and found a \"CHURCH\" that will never be destroyed. It was all so crazy! And it ALL came true! The entire NT banks on the fact that a dead man arose. The entire NT banks on the idea that that risen man would be seen coming on the clouds at the time of the Destruction of Jerusalem (Matt. 24, Makk 13, and Luke 21) . Something similar had happened for the Maccabees, who were badly outnumbered by the Seluecids: battallions of angels had appeared over Jerusalem and the Macc. Revolt, with Heaven\'s help, succeeded. Now Jesus in Matthew 10:23 and 16:27-28 and Matt. 24:29-34 promises to do the same on behalf of the Apostles and first Christians. Truly unlikely promises, right? Dissertation 3, Book 5 Chapter 13 records the arrival of the heavenly troops over Herod\'s Temple and the departure of spirits through the great doors into the clouds! You have to read it for yourself. The accunt can also be found in Tacitus\' Histories. So Peshar and Peshat and Midrash and Sod, and all the other interpretive nuances of the NT was shared by all in the Jewish universe in general. What makes the difference is the efficacy of the claims. Did Jesus arise? Did he return? Has his church survived? Today there are more than 2.8 billion Christians, and globally over 200,000 baptisms every day. I would take Matthew seriously,even if Christians are [now] under the impression that the Second Coming is yet future.'); return false;">Quote</a></div> The intellectua honesty of all, Christian or not, is needed by all involvedin this discussion. Thee was a time when I was very embarrassed by Matthew's work and so-called prophetic fulfillments. Howbeit,in time and through much study, hardship and pain I came to find out about Jewish interpretive methods that, at that time in the late Second Jewish Commonwealth, were consdered legitimate and would not have been questioned by anyone in the Jewish world. Matthew builds and builds on what he allege as his book progresses, pushing the envelope, so-to-speak, till at last he crosses into what appears at first blush to be the frankly ridiculous: a man put to death will rise again and come back in clouds with heavenly armies to destroy a Temple which is better than 500 years old, end a religious system which is close to or better than 1,500 years old and found a "CHURCH" that will never be destroyed. It was all so crazy! And it ALL came true! The entire NT banks on the fact that a dead man arose. The entire NT banks on the idea that that risen man would be seen coming on the clouds at the time of the Destruction of Jerusalem (Matt. 24, Makk 13, and Luke 21) . Something similar had happened for the Maccabees, who were badly outnumbered by the Seluecids: battallions of angels had appeared over Jerusalem and the Macc. Revolt, with Heaven's help, succeeded. Now Jesus in Matthew 10:23 and 16:27-28 and Matt. 24:29-34 promises to do the same on behalf of the Apostles and first Christians. Truly unlikely promises, right? Dissertation 3, Book 5 Chapter 13 records the arrival of the heavenly troops over Herod's Temple and the departure of spirits through the great doors into the clouds! You have to read it for yourself. The accunt can also be found in Tacitus' Histories. So Peshar and Peshat and Midrash and Sod, and all the other interpretive nuances of the NT was shared by all in the Jewish universe in general. What makes the difference is the efficacy of the claims. Did Jesus arise? Did he return? Has his church survived? Today there are more than 2.8 billion Christians, and globally over 200,000 baptisms every day. I would take Matthew seriously,even if Christians are [now] under the impression that the Second Coming is yet future.
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]]> By: Marcia http://conversationalatheist.com/2009/07/failed-prophecies-and-intellectual-honesty/comment-page-1/#comment-880 Marcia Tue, 11 Aug 2009 02:49:56 +0000 http://conversationalatheist.com/?p=1113#comment-880 It is interesting to me that you talk about intellectual honesty but failed to demonstrate this in your discussion of John MacArthur's article, "The King Fulfills Prophecy - Part 2," concerning the Jeremiah 31:15 prophecy. MacArthur discusses how this prophecy relates to the Babylonian captivity and further points out that Rachel represents all of the mothers of Israel, mourning because Herod has slain their children. There is a deeper symbolism represented in this prophecy, which you have not addressed.<div class="comment-remix-meta"><a href="#" class="replyto" onclick="replyto('880','Marcia'); return false;">Reply</a> | <a href="#" class="quote" onclick="quote('880','Marcia','It is interesting to me that you talk about intellectual honesty but failed to demonstrate this in your discussion of John MacArthur\'s article, \"The King Fulfills Prophecy - Part 2,\" concerning the Jeremiah 31:15 prophecy. MacArthur discusses how this prophecy relates to the Babylonian captivity and further points out that Rachel represents all of the mothers of Israel, mourning because Herod has slain their children. There is a deeper symbolism represented in this prophecy, which you have not addressed.'); return false;">Quote</a></div> It is interesting to me that you talk about intellectual honesty but failed to demonstrate this in your discussion of John MacArthur's article, "The King Fulfills Prophecy - Part 2," concerning the Jeremiah 31:15 prophecy. MacArthur discusses how this prophecy relates to the Babylonian captivity and further points out that Rachel represents all of the mothers of Israel, mourning because Herod has slain their children. There is a deeper symbolism represented in this prophecy, which you have not addressed.
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]]> By: PaulSJenkins http://conversationalatheist.com/2009/07/failed-prophecies-and-intellectual-honesty/comment-page-1/#comment-823 PaulSJenkins Tue, 21 Jul 2009 22:22:17 +0000 http://conversationalatheist.com/?p=1113#comment-823 It's worth reminding people who think that the New Testament fulfills prophecies in the Old Testament that those who wrote the New Testament had read the Old Testament, and were likely well aware of what was expected of them. But here's my prophecy (and its outcome): "I prophecy that something will happen." (...time passes...) Something happens. "Something has happened. See? I was right!" "No you weren't - the something you prophesied was too vague to <i>necessarily</i> apply to the something that has actually happened. The something <i>you</i> prophesied most likely remains to be fulfilled." <div class="comment-remix-meta"><a href="#" class="replyto" onclick="replyto('823','PaulSJenkins'); return false;">Reply</a> | <a href="#" class="quote" onclick="quote('823','PaulSJenkins','It's worth reminding people who think that the New Testament fulfills prophecies in the Old Testament that those who wrote the New Testament had read the Old Testament, and were likely well aware of what was expected of them. \n \nBut here's my prophecy (and its outcome): \n \n"I prophecy that something will happen." (...time passes...) Something happens. "Something has happened. See? I was right!" "No you weren't - the something you prophesied was too vague to <i>necessarily<\/i> apply to the something that has actually happened. The something <i>you<\/i> prophesied most likely remains to be fulfilled." '); return false;">Quote</a></div> It's worth reminding people who think that the New Testament fulfills prophecies in the Old Testament that those who wrote the New Testament had read the Old Testament, and were likely well aware of what was expected of them.

But here's my prophecy (and its outcome):

"I prophecy that something will happen." (...time passes...) Something happens. "Something has happened. See? I was right!" "No you weren't - the something you prophesied was too vague to necessarily apply to the something that has actually happened. The something you prophesied most likely remains to be fulfilled."

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]]> By: Danny Boy, FCD http://conversationalatheist.com/2009/07/failed-prophecies-and-intellectual-honesty/comment-page-1/#comment-812 Danny Boy, FCD Sun, 19 Jul 2009 23:19:54 +0000 http://conversationalatheist.com/?p=1113#comment-812 The passage in Jeremiah 31, read in its own context, was about the exile of the Jewish people (children of Rachel) and their eventual return to the holy land. It takes a lot of creative wordplay to make it a prophecy. <div class="comment-remix-meta"><a href="#" class="replyto" onclick="replyto('812','Danny Boy, FCD'); return false;">Reply</a> | <a href="#" class="quote" onclick="quote('812','Danny Boy, FCD','The passage in Jeremiah 31, read in its own context, was about the exile of the Jewish people (children of Rachel) and their eventual return to the holy land. It takes a lot of creative wordplay to make it a prophecy. '); return false;">Quote</a></div> The passage in Jeremiah 31, read in its own context, was about the exile of the Jewish people (children of Rachel) and their eventual return to the holy land. It takes a lot of creative wordplay to make it a prophecy.
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]]> By: updn http://conversationalatheist.com/2009/07/failed-prophecies-and-intellectual-honesty/comment-page-1/#comment-811 updn Sun, 19 Jul 2009 22:20:10 +0000 http://conversationalatheist.com/?p=1113#comment-811 If you're interested in this type of thing, look into how the authors of several of the Dead Sea Scrolls did a similar thing in their "Pesher" texts. They are basically commentaries on texts in the Hebrew Bible that reinterpreted them to match their present day situations, including prophecies about their Teacher. Likewise you'll see that Matthew's Gospel uses a similar tactic to make everything seem like it's fulfilling prophecy, even when the author has to stretch the texts to absurd lengths to do so. <div class="comment-remix-meta"><a href="#" class="replyto" onclick="replyto('811','updn'); return false;">Reply</a> | <a href="#" class="quote" onclick="quote('811','updn','If you're interested in this type of thing, look into how the authors of several of the Dead Sea Scrolls did a similar thing in their "Pesher" texts. They are basically commentaries on texts in the Hebrew Bible that reinterpreted them to match their present day situations, including prophecies about their Teacher. Likewise you'll see that Matthew's Gospel uses a similar tactic to make everything seem like it's fulfilling prophecy, even when the author has to stretch the texts to absurd lengths to do so. '); return false;">Quote</a></div> If you're interested in this type of thing, look into how the authors of several of the Dead Sea Scrolls did a similar thing in their "Pesher" texts. They are basically commentaries on texts in the Hebrew Bible that reinterpreted them to match their present day situations, including prophecies about their Teacher. Likewise you'll see that Matthew's Gospel uses a similar tactic to make everything seem like it's fulfilling prophecy, even when the author has to stretch the texts to absurd lengths to do so.
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]]> By: James Tracy http://conversationalatheist.com/2009/07/failed-prophecies-and-intellectual-honesty/comment-page-1/#comment-809 James Tracy Sun, 19 Jul 2009 20:39:14 +0000 http://conversationalatheist.com/?p=1113#comment-809 The amount of intellectual dishonesty that goes into making Old Testament prophecies and even non-prophecies, as in this case, fit the New Testament never fails to astound me. <div class="comment-remix-meta"><a href="#" class="replyto" onclick="replyto('809','James Tracy'); return false;">Reply</a> | <a href="#" class="quote" onclick="quote('809','James Tracy','The amount of intellectual dishonesty that goes into making Old Testament prophecies and even non-prophecies, as in this case, fit the New Testament never fails to astound me. '); return false;">Quote</a></div> The amount of intellectual dishonesty that goes into making Old Testament prophecies and even non-prophecies, as in this case, fit the New Testament never fails to astound me.
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