I recently read one of Alicia Donathan's (St. Louis Presbyterian Examiner) articles responding to questions from an atheist.
Questions from an atheist part 6:
Q: If there is a loving God, why does He permit--much less create--earthquakes, droughts, floods, tornadoes, and other natural disasters which kill thousands of innocent men, women, and children each year?
As previously noted, the answer to this question is, "I don't know. And neither does anyone else."
When you ask a person to explain God's apparently contradictory actions, you will inevitably get a shoulder shrug, and perhaps a "How am I supposed to know the mind of God?"
Atheists need to figure out the kinds of questions that get a bit deeper. Don't ask a person to explain God's actions. You'll eventually get to the "mysterious ways" layer if you ask deep enough.
The real question is, given that you are dealing with a creature whose motives are mysterious -- why are you worshipping it? It's really fairly simple, either you can know something substantive about God's actions, morals and motives and can make a judgment; or you can't know something substantive about God's actions, morals and motives and have to refrain from making a judgment.
A theist should not be allowed to hide behind "God is unknowable" and simultaneously claim that "God is praiseworthy".
Do not ask a theist to explain God's actions, ask a theist to explain his own actions. If the theist worships the God of the Bible, ask something like, "How can you worship a God that commanded His followers to kill children and infants as 1 Sam. 15 claims?"
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Logical contradictions are exactly the kind of thing we need to bring more attention to, if we are to open constructive dialogue with those who have faith in faith, but who are nevertheless intrigued by those of us who live a good life despite being entirely free of religious superstition. It is an incredibly useful way of highlighting the vital difference between "losing faith" as "gaining reason".
Your example here is also the sort of thing I often find it difficult to explore without seeming as if I am deliberately deceiving someone with semantics; tricking them into giving me the answer I want them to, rather than what they actually think.
Searching for the right metaphor is a constant battle, particularly with people who have not learned to control their pattern seeking confirmation bias, or what the military refer to as 'scenario completion syndrome'. It is very easy to trigger the believer's rehearsed answers, using the vocabulary of their particular faith. It is far more complicated a matter, to take them to a place where they might think logically about a given scenario, which is without a direct biblical narrative, for which the only correct answer is one which is personal to them and yet arrived upon entirely through procedural logic.
I've made a short animation on Prayer, which demonstrates where I personally intend to go with this kind of secular activism.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XN6f7-cloyE
I am also concerned about making sure that I don't trick the people I argue with by semantics. Winning by confusion is ultimately a self-defeating strategy.
[...] Worship Someone With Mysterious Motives? The Conversational Atheist raises a good point: When you ask a person to explain God’s apparently contradictory actions, you [...]
A theist will likely reply you are not dealing with a creature whose motives you don’t know but rather with a creator whose motives you don’t know. And therein, it is often argued, lies all the difference. Paul in Romans 9 argues as much.
But this argument assumes that creating someone gives you full rights to use or abuse them in whatever ways you desire. And that assumption is entirely out of bounds when thinking about parents and the children they create. Children of parents are not morally subordinated to their parents such that their parents’ motives never need to be scrutinized or evaluated.
If it is not an issue of power and creative origination giving God these rights over us then maybe it is the qualitative gap in kind of being he is. Since we are supposedly “creations” and of a different order of being than the source of being itself, then we cannot fathom the source of being’s mind as though it were like ours or its motives as though they were scrutinizable like ours. But in that case, then we must drop all this moral language with respect to this creating source of being because if its mind is that radically different than ours such that we cannot understand its motives, then we do not know if they are good motives or whether, therefore, this being is anything like what we would call morally good. Again the Conversational Atheist’s point would stand.
Finally the argument would be that God has motives like ours, they are moral like our best ones are, and the mystery is just discerning the particularities of why he does what he does. He is omniscient so he sees the bigger scheme of things that we just don’t get because of the limitations of our perspective. But if that were the case, then again we would have to be agnostic about God’s motives and goodness because of our ignorance of the bigger picture. Since we do not know the longview and what God’s “end game” really is, being just creatures with finite powers to know, then again God’s motives could be either good or bad and there is simply no way to verify their intentions. Even what look like blessings may be just traps he is using to increase our pain down the road, as that great theologian Chef postulated:
Stan : “Why would God let Kenny die, Chef? Why? Kenny’s my friend. Why can’t God take someone else’s friend?”
Chef : “Stan, sometimes God takes those closest to us, because it makes him feel better about himself. He is a very vengeful God, Stan. He’s all pissed off about something we did thousands of years ago. He just can’t get over it, so he doesn’t care who he takes. Children, puppies , it don’t matter to him, so long as it makes us sad. Do you understand?”
Stan : “But then, why does God give us anything to start with?”
Chef : “Well, look at it this way: if you want to make a baby cry, first you give it a lollipop. Then you take it away. If you never give it a lollipop to begin with, then you would have nothin’ to cry about. That’s like God, who gives us life and love and help just so that he can tear it all away and make us cry, so he can drink the sweet milk of our tears. You see, it’s our tears, Stan, that give God his great power.”
Stan : “I think I understand.”
If God’s mind and motives are mysterious, then this explanation of why apparently good things happen (only as set ups for worse evils) is equally possible as the reasons that religious apologetists give for why bad things happen (because they will pave the way for greater goods).
And a being whose motives are so inscrutable does not deserve worship.
http://camelswithhammers.wordpress.com/2009/06/26...
I am so sorry you feel this way. My heart truly aches for you. I will make it a point to pray EVERYDAY for God to choose you before you reach the depths of hell (your feet should already be burning after the last comment). If there is ANY question I can answer to help you see God in a more clear way, please let me know....the above illustration is beyond foggy. ALL WRONG!
superdrupermegapuper54321...
Very usefull info. Thanks!...
(If there is a loving God, why does He permit–much less create–earthquakes, droughts, floods, tornadoes, and other natural disasters which kill thousands of innocent men, women, and children each year?)
**The problem with atheist is they pick and choose the words they want to create "a God of choice". Please do not get me wrong, Christians do it too! I am by no means trying to point a finger at anyone or trying to say I am better than the guy beside me. The only difference between me and a non-believer is that I am aware of how sinful and broken I am (but, by the grace of God, am cleansed by Jesus Christ) God IS a loving God. He is ALSO a merciful,just God! Humans cannot explain the things they do, so how are we supposed to explain EVERYTHING God does? Seeing forums like these makes my heart ache towards those people who are not chosen by God. I will continue to pray for them. Please do not read this post as my being ugly or hateful towards ANYONE. If you have any questions that you would really like to challenge me with please ask! I would LOVE the challenge!!
I'm not as concerned with natural disaster accidents -- compelling as they are -- and I'm not interested in you explaining everything that you think God does. I'm asking a question about you, to you.
Do you believe that God commanded His followers to kill men, women, children, and infants as the Bible said that He did in 1 Samuel 15?
If so, what goes on in your head that lets you worship such an evil creature as though it is good?
If you don't, let me know and we'll explore that avenue.
Wow! I apologize for taking so long to get Back with you!! BUSY, BUSY, BUSY!! YES! I do personally (and so should every Christian believe in the bible as a whole!! Revelation 22:18 warns everyone who hears the words of the prophecy of this book: If anyone adds anything to them, God will add to him the plagues described in this book. 19 And if anyone takes words away from this book of prophecy, God will take away from him his share in the tree of life and in the holy city, which are described in this book. Therefore, If I did not believe in something such as 1 Samual 15 then my own beliefs would not be totally 100% bound to scripture (God's word)! Truly, what goes on in my head is that if I build a lego city then because it is mine...I can do ANYTHING I want to do with it. I created it for my purpose!! Same way God gas created us (for his glory)'''' I DO NOT SEE GOD TO BE AN EVIL CREATURE. Hw is a just God and very merciful!! I hoe this helps and to hear from you soon! Courtney
Courtney: "I can do ANYTHING I want to do with it. I created it for my purpose!!... Same way God gas created us (for his glory)'''' I DO NOT SEE GOD TO BE AN EVIL CREATURE. Hw is a just God and very merciful!!"
So, if you could not possibly mistreat your Lego city -- literally nothing you ever did to it, melt it, rip it apart, whatever -- could be considered evil. Ok, I accept your analysis, explain to me if there can be no moral condemnation for the way you treat your creation, how could there be moral praise for the way you treat your creation?
Either your creation is a thing that you can interact with in a morally meaningful way -- or not. If you can interact with your creation in a way that is praiseworthy, it is also possible for you to interact with your creation in a way that is morally condemnable.
If it simply is not possible to interact in a way that is morally condemnable to your own creation, fine, you also cannot act in a way that is morally praiseworthy.
Let's bring this back to God. You can say that no matter what God does He cannot mistreat something that He created -- fine. Then since it isn't even possible for him to do otherwise, God's actions -- whatever they are -- are not praiseworthy, either.
'Wow! I apologize for taking so long to get Back with you!! BUSY, BUSY, BUSY!! YES! I do personally (and so should every Christian believe in the bible as a whole!! Revelation 22:18 warns everyone who hears the words of the prophecy of this book: If anyone adds anything to them, God will add to him the plagues described in this book. 19 And if anyone takes words away from this book of prophecy, God will take away from him his share in the tree of life and in the holy city, which are described in this book. Therefore, If I did not believe in something such as 1 Samual 15 then my own beliefs would not be totally 100% bound to scripture (God's word)! Truly, what goes on in my head is that if I build a lego city then because it is mine...I can do ANYTHING I want to do with it. I created it for my purpose!! Same way God gas created us (for his glory)'''' I DO NOT SEE GOD TO BE AN EVIL CREATURE. Hw is a just God and very merciful!! I hoe this helps and to hear from you soon! Courtney
I also wanted to leave a "deep thought" for the atheists!! It is OBVIOUS that there is a God because if there were not one then why would people be trying to prove that he does not exist? In smaller terms...if there was a table and no apples were placed on the top of the table then when asked "How many apples are on top of the table" there would be NO argument that the answer is NONE!! Therefore, the Holy Spirit is so powerful that people do not even have to "see" him to know that God exists!! If God truly did not exist, we would NEVER speak a word about him, his power, his mercy, his grace, or HIS ability to send us to Heaven or Hell. Why not just go ahead and believe in God??? What do you have to loose? If you believe in one God and that Jesus Christ died on the cross for your sins then you are going to heaven. If you believe this and in the end there really was no God then guess what?? YOU WILL NOT CARE BECAUSE YOU WILL BE "POOF"!! My goal in life is to help at least one person understand and believe in God (me plant the seed that God will grow)!! PLEASE....FEEL FREE TO ASK ME ANYTHING!! Have a wonderful day y'all!!
Courtney: "It is OBVIOUS that there is a God because if there were not one then why would people be trying to prove that he does not exist?"
Good question. Do I argue with God about anything? No. Do I argue with people who believe in God? Yes. What is it that exists? People who believe in God -- that should explain everything.
If no one believed in God, then I would have no argument with anyone. If people believed that praying to unicorns helped cancer victims, and money was spent on a project like this -- I would have an issue with the people who believed in unicorns. The fact that unicorns do not exist is completely irrelevant. The fact that PEOPLE exist who believe in unicorns -- or God -- is entirely relevant.
You totally missed my point but in the same breath you satisfied my argument!! "Up to this point NOBODY believed that If people believed that praying to unicorns helped cancer victims, and money was spent on a project like this--" I have NEVER heard of this silly non-sense because it CLEARLY DOES NOT EXIST. There are MANY facts that prove that God exists!! Have you ever been in a room and someone says "I farted"? Well, by "faith" you believe that they farted. Then your actions set in...you hold your nose, or possibly remove yourself from the room. At no time did you hear, see, or even smell the fart. Of course I am not comparing God to gas....but I feel that he is treated as if he does not exist because people cannot see, hear, smell, etc. him! Unless God has "regenerated" your heart (chose you to be a child of God / A Christian) then it will be a FOREVER argument on the non-believer's end. When it comes to talking about God's morals or even one beings morals, that is a place where we just cannot go (I do not attempt to go there) Unless scripture directly quotes it!! I am now choosing to not post any further comments on this website. Having someone say that God's actions are not praiseworthy is absent minded . He sent his son to die on the cross for US (action)...He created you (action), He forgives us of our sins (action)...etc. Need I go any further??? I will continue to pray that God regenerates your heart!
You totally missed my point but in the same breath you satisfied my argument!! "Up to this point NOBODY believed that If people believed that praying to unicorns helped cancer victims, and money was spent on a project like this--" I have NEVER heard of this silly non-sense because it CLEARLY DOES NOT EXIST. There are MANY facts that prove that God exists!! Have you ever been in a room and someone says "I farted"? Well, by "faith" you believe that they farted. Then your actions set in...you hold your nose, or possibly remove yourself from the room. At no time did you hear, see, or even smell the fart. Of course I am not comparing God to gas....but I feel that he is treated as if he does not exist because people cannot see, hear, smell, etc. him! Unless God has "regenerated" your heart (chose you to be a child of God / A Christian) then it will be a FOREVER argument on the non-believer's end. When it comes to talking about God's morals or even one beings morals, that is a place where we just cannot go (I do not attempt to go there) Unless scripture directly quotes it!! I am now choosing to not post any further comments on this website. Having someone say that God's actions are not praiseworthy is absent minded . He sent his son to die on the cross for US (action)...He created you (action), He forgives us of our sins (action)...etc. Need I go any further??? I will continue to pray that God regenerates your heart!
"I have NEVER heard of this silly non-sense because it CLEARLY DOES NOT EXIST. There are MANY facts that prove that God exists!!"
I'm glad you don't believe in unicorns, but I'd like to hear a bit more about why you think that they clearly don't exist. How are you skeptical of this mythical creature?
Courtney: "When it comes to talking about God's morals or even one beings morals, that is a place where we just cannot go (I do not attempt to go there) Unless scripture directly quotes it!!"
When God ordered His followers to kill men, women, children and infants with swords in First Samuel 15; if you were alive back then, would you have questioned God's order? Or would you have devotedly stabbed children to death in obedience to the God-whose-morals-you-never-question?
By the way, I hope you stick around to continue this discussion.
Mysterious Motives? God does not perform mysterious motives. He has a reason and purpose for EVERYTHING...we just might not know them all right here today!!
i believe in unicorns, where do i send my money
[...] Conversational Atheist and I made similar arguments last summer. Â Law beat both of us to the idea in 2007 on his blog, [...]
[...] Conversational Atheist raises a good point: When you ask a person to explain God’s apparently contradictory actions, you [...]