Lunch with Mormons
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- Image by AllAboutMormons.com via Flickr
I had a great time having lunch a few days ago with 2 Mormon missionaries and 2 recent Mormon converts (they had just become or were in the process of becoming Mormon).
It was interesting to see the little stories and other techniques that the missionaries used to try to keep the meeting on their agenda. They had definitely had training, but it was really interesting to see what happened if you got them off their script.
Part of the training, I’m sure, is that they tell stories. They started out with one about, “A young man named Joseph Smith who… prayed and God and Jesus appeared before him, and gave him a message.”
So, a simple first question, “Why doesn’t God appear that way to everyone?”
“But then we wouldn’t have faith…”
“How miserable was Joseph Smith for the rest of his life after that encounter robbed him of his faith?”
“Oh he still had faith…”
I haven’t written about it, yet, but I used the “How does that work in Heaven?” question/tactic quite a bit because they just could not respond to it at all.
It works roughly as follows:
“Why is there suffering?”
– Because God gives us free will, and this results in pain and suffering …
“And it would be a bad thing if we didn’t have free will?”
– We would just be robots, and God doesn’t want robots following Him!
“So we have free will in heaven?”
– Of course!
“How much suffering is there in heaven?”
– None. It’s a perfect paradise.
“So, we can live in a perfect paradise without suffering, ever, and still have free will?”
– Yep!
“So let’s go back to that first question, why is there suffering in the world?”
– I already said this, God gives us free will!
“But, you just said that we could live in a perfect blissful harmony forever without any suffering and still have free will.”
– Wait… I guess we don’t have free will in heaven.
“So for the rest of eternity, God wants us to be robots in heaven worshipping Him without choice?”
– ….
I really need to get around to writing up the full essay on this, but hopefully that teaser was enough to whet your appetite. I plan having a number of these lunches in the future. Look for future updates!
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It seems that much of what they do is tell stories. From what I recall, their answers to many of our questions came in the form of a story. Whether a story about certain feelings they had while praying or stories about odd coincidences that may or may not have happened out in Africa.
Interesting post, and I look forward to more. Are you thinking of becoming a Mormon?
Very interesting post. Very interesting about the "free will" issue. I wondered as a kid what if I blundered in heaven, like Satan and the 1/3 of heaven. What would keep me sinless in heaven if even the angels couldn't keep out of trouble?
You've made a more practical argument out of those kinds of feelings that I once had even back when I was still Christian.
Well said.
I don't know anyone who's a Mormon, but I've seen missionaries walking about. They seem like decent people, I'd let them in the house if they come a-knockin' at my door.
I think you've oversimplified Mormon beliefs…and maybe you or the missionaries weren't clear. Free will is the pillar of human existence. It is the biological beginning of a God created earth, the cause of all suffering and joy in this life, and in the life to come (think of the next life as a transcendent experience, a transformative, biological process religionists call a separation of body and spirit). Einstein came closest to defining this process when he described the atomic process of transforming a log into smoke and ashes—releasing the energy within and transforming it into another form of energy. At the beginning of life, there was a choice to push the first step into motion.
That was a choice by God to begin the creative process. Before that we all existed in a particle form different from the body we inhabit now (see Stephen Hawking for definitions of matter—it has always existed and always will) we call that a spiritual form. So for simplification terms it looks like this: 1. spiritual form. 2. physical, earthly form. 3. spiritual, refined form. In each of these forms we have a conscience, and the ability to make choice and feel their consequences. As governed by some of the laws of evolution, there are laws of progression and digression. But again, they are all based on the choice we, as beings whose matter was organized by God, make everyday.
Mormonism accepts this progression, celebrates it, is humbled by it. We don't portend to know everything, and feelings and faith certainly contribute to what we learn. But no one human being can comprehend the scope and purpose of all existence from beginning to end in this life. We weren't meant to…but we certainly believe that the willingness to learn (because of free will) through all phases of existence, particularly into the thousands of years in which our consciousness will continue to thrive, that we may one day know what it takes to organize matter ourselves. (look how long it took scientists to figure out that light is manifested in waves and particles). You could call that ability Godlike. So what do Mormons believe?
We existed before. We exist now. We will exist after this life. Free will determines our level of serenity in each state, and the free will of others also affects that serenity to some degree (from the angst of witnessing genocide, to the angst we experiencing when our child is in the hospital). As for the stories? Well, is it harder to believe that God appeared to man in modern times and made some of the laws of the universe more clear and emphasized love and benevolence…or that Einstein saw in a vision, or vivid imagination, a visual metaphor of the theory of relativity? I would argue that it was God appearing to both in different manifestations. You may criticize me and fellow Mormons for believing in intelligent design…but design without intelligence is merely chaos. And the symmetry and balnce of the world, from sub-atomic to the universe is anything but anarchy and chaos.
Good to see you exercising your free will, may it bring you the joy of progressing intellectually, emotionally and spiritually.
We existed before. We exist now. We will exist after this life. Free will determines our level of serenity in each state, and the free will of others also affects that serenity to some degree (from the angst of witnessing genocide, to the angst we experiencing when our child is in the hospital).
As for the stories? Well, is it harder to believe that God appeared to man in modern times and made some of the laws of the universe more clear and emphasized love and benevolence…or that Einstein saw in a vision, or vivid imagination, a visual metaphor of the theory of relativity? I would argue that it was God appearing to both in different manifestations. You may criticize me and fellow Mormons for believing in intelligent design…but design without intelligence is merely chaos. And the symmetry and balance of the world, from sub-atomic to the universe is anything but anarchy and chaos.
Good to see you exercising your free will, may it bring you the joy of progressing intellectually, emotionally and spiritually.
"Free will is the pillar of human existence. It is the biological beginning of a God created earth, the cause of all suffering and joy in this life, and in the life to come…"
So, free will is the cause of all suffering in this life and in heaven? How much suffering is there in heaven?
Wait a minute! Why are you replying to my comment? I didn't write the blog post. LOL.